Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

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Re: Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

Post by Rum » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:01 pm

JimC wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:You're clearly a Marxist, Rum. :coffee:
Rumour has it that his underpants have a hammer and sickle pattern!

In red!

:shock:
Have you been in my drawers Jim? ... :what:

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Re: Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:02 pm

Has he been in your "drawers"?!? :naughty:
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Re: Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

Post by JimC » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:21 pm

:lol:
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Re: Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

Post by Seth » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:21 am

SnowLeopard wrote:
I'm not derailing anything. If you don't like the system of the country you are living in, depart the country. Sitting there complaining about it but continuing to take part in the thing you are complaining about seems rather.. I'm not sure. Childish. Like a kid moaning to mummy about having to eat his sprouts, but knows in reality he has to just shut up and eat them or he doesn't get any ice cream. Adults seem to grow out of that and just knuckle down and get on with it, you know?

No? It's not a question of morality at all. I don't have to justify anything to you. I didn't make the law.

If you want my opinion. It would be immoral not to tax those who can afford it to assist people who need help. With so few people controlling so much of the wealth, on a planet of 7 billion people it is a necessity to redistribute that wealth so they can have a bearable life. Because you know, we are a civilized and humane society. Unfortunately, for you, every country in the world has that same opinion. If that means that Seths jimmies have to be rustled, well, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

Which leaves you with 2 options.

1, Suck it up.

2, Find an atoll and create Sethland.
This is quite literally nothing more than a simplistic utilitarian "might makes right" "love it or leave it" asinine argument that, if I made it by saying that government should shoot YOU in the head for proposing theft you would bitch and scream like a three year old about. Just as every other socialist on earth you dare not even look at the morality of your behavior because you intuitively know that it's wrong and immoral to take what someone else has worked for without their permission just so you can be more comfortable.

:nono:
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Re: Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

Post by Seth » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:29 am

SnowLeopard wrote:
Seth wrote: like every single socialist I've ever encountered you know damned well you can't morally and ethically justify redistributive socialist theft.
Well, we can. You just don't like the answers.

It's almost as though people have different opinions from you, isn't it.

Weird.
You don't have an answer, you have an appeal to common practice fallacy, that's it. You simply cannot make a valid moral or ethical argument for taking by force what someone else has worked to obtain. The only argument you can make, that any socialist has EVER made, from Karl Marx right down to you, is that it's "unfair" for someone else to have more than you do, so it's justifiable to take it from them and redistribute it to suit your fancy.

That doesn't begin to be a moral argument, it's pure initiation of force, unapologetically so, which if turned against YOU would have you shrieking in livid fury.

Sorry, but your comfort and convenience don't justify thieving my property from me and I will defend my property with force, up to and including lethal force against those who would try to rob me of what's mine. If that means you starve to death, so fucking what? Who cares? Not my concern and the world will be a better place without you and your ilk. You're just a replaceable cog in the Marxist machine anyway, to be used up and disposed of at the pleasure of your Marxist masters, so YOUR bleating about the "needs" of the seething proletarian masses is just so much evasive drivel.

I doubt you even know what a valid moral or ethical argument is, and I'm completely certain you cannot construct one. No socialist can or ever will.
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Re: Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

Post by Seth » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:34 am

MrJonno wrote:Natural law says its ethnically justified to redistributive wealth


Of course natural law doesn't exist but if Seth can make shit up so can I. Maybe my natural law is different to his natural law. You have libertarian natural law and socialist marxist law or mixed economy natural law. In fact why not just drop the natural law bit and call it politics
No, natural law says it's possible to "ethnically" (sic) redistribute wealth because natural law is the law of the jungle, and he who has the ability to reduce a thing to his possession and keep it that way has the natural right to do so. And natural law doesn't give a flying fuck what happens to the loser.

Ethics and morality have nothing to do with natural law, which is something I'm quite sure you cannot possibly understand. Ethics and morality are human constructs created to reduce the red-in-tooth-and-claw process of natural law and thereby allow groups of humans to live together in relative peace.

If you want to argue natural law and say that it's "ethnically" (sic) justifiable I'll just "ethnically" justify my needs by coming over to your place and taking every fucking thing you own whether you like it or not because I have the ability to do so and you are entirely unable to prevent me from doing so. So be careful what you wish for.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

Post by Seth » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:38 am

JimC wrote:Anyway, we who live in countries with some form of national health care don't give a flying continental fuck what selfish arseholes from less fortunate countries might "think" about how we run our affairs...
That doesn't make you immune to being criticized as a common thief. The common thief always rationalizes his criminality by telling himself that he deserves what he wants more than the person who labored to earn it. But that's just a delusional rationalization, which is what all of Marxism is...a flatly insane delusional mental defect afflicting a large number of people who, for the betterment of the species, need to be culled from the gene pool.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

Post by Seth » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:38 am

Rum wrote:Quite so Jim. The proof of the pudding and all that. My family has benefited enormously from the NHS here - and at times we could have afforded private treatment too. When I was diagnosed with penile cancer nine years ago I was so alarmed (as you might expect!) that I had an initial consultation with a BUPA Consultant (Bupa is our biggest private health care organisation). I asked the guy I saw if I should go with BUPA. He said I shouldn't waste my money and that in any case I would be seeing him if I went NHS! Which I did. The treatment all round was superb.
And paid for with OPM taken by force. Thievery.

Morally and ethically speaking it would be better if you suffered the consequences of your life on your own rather than shifting the burden to others against their will. If that means you die a slow, horrible, painful death, that's unfortunate, but it's far more moral and ethical than stealing from others. Of course you'll never understand that because all socialists are too narcissistically selfish, mentally impaired and too deluded with their own self-importance to be able to examine their beliefs and behaviors in a rational and logical manner.

But if I come to your house, walk in and take your telly, your DVD player, your camera, your car and anything else that strikes my fancy because I think I need it more than you do, you'll be screaming like a stuck pig for the police to come and protect YOUR property against forcible expropriation. That's the very epitome of haughty, arrogant hypocrisy.

And yet you are entirely unable to see this fact, much less acknowledge the hypocrisy, much less amend your behavior so as to live an ethical and moral life free of the ill-gotten gains of thievery.

In other words, you're a perfectly typical Marxist proletarian useful idiot.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

Post by JimC » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:48 am

At least, unlike yourself, Rum is useful...
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Re: Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

Post by Seth » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:54 am

mistermack wrote:The phrase ''natural law'' is a weird one anyway.
There is hardly any sign of property being respected in the animal world.
If you can take it, it's yours.
Indeed. If only you could follow this argument to it's logical and rational conclusion....
It's only when you get to the most intelligent social animals, that there is even a hint of ''property'' and then, only the slightest hint.
Correct again! Another step in the right direction. Keep going...

Chimpanzees might allow a smaller chimp to keep a desired object, but it's really only because of the social upset that taking it by force would cause.
Gosh, a moral and ethical decision by a chimpanzee. Too bad socialists aren't as intelligent or ethical as chimpanzees.
If they can take something by subterfuge, they will.
Some monkeys will take the food out of the mouth of a lower ranking monkey, they don't even own it if it's inside them.
Socialists will take everything a man owns or possesses merely because they think it's not "fair" that he possess it, which puts them several rungs below chimpanzees on the moral/ethical scale.
So there is no moral or ethical right to property for any animal.
Which describes socialists and socialism quite nicely I'm afraid.
You have to be religious to think that it's different for humans.


How true! That is, in point fact, why religion exists in the first place. Pity you can't see the connections though.
We just take social living further than other animals, and write the rules down.
No you don't. As a socialist you live below the level of the chimpanzee because you will take all a man has, including his life, if it suits your socialistic sense of "fairness," and you don't give a flying fuck about the personal OR the social consequences of doing so. You do it because you can, and like a mindless animal, you take what you want and care nothing for the labor or property of others, which makes you as amoral as any other lower animal and therefore unworthy of the title of "sentient being."
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

Post by JimC » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:04 am

Seth, you seem to confuse the expropriation of private property by Marxist regimes of the past (by violence, during and after revolutions, and clearly hard to defend morally) with the straightforward process of taxation that occurs in every single modern economy. The precise details of tax laws and scales are of course open to criticism, and in fact change if a new government is elected. However, the existence of taxation is not a "socialist menace", it is a straightforward fact of life in any functioning economy.
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Re: Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

Post by Seth » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:15 am

JimC wrote:Seth, you seem to confuse the expropriation of private property by Marxist regimes of the past (by violence, during and after revolutions, and clearly hard to defend morally) with the straightforward process of taxation that occurs in every single modern economy. The precise details of tax laws and scales are of course open to criticism, and in fact change if a new government is elected. However, the existence of taxation is not a "socialist menace", it is a straightforward fact of life in any functioning economy.
Wrong. As I've said approximately a billion times, "taxation" is a broad term that you mendaciously use to avoid the actual subject, which is ONE FORM of taxation called "direct redistributive taxation," which is the practice of taking money from one person or group of persons (the wealthy) and giving it to another person or group of persons (the poor).

Direct redistributive taxation is pure, unadulterated theft by proxy using the Mace of State as the weapon of coercion and force against the legitimate owner of the value of the labor from whom the value is taken against his will.

Until you are capable of understanding this distinction I'll have better luck arguing with one of Rum's chimpanzees.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

Post by JimC » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:35 am

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:Seth, you seem to confuse the expropriation of private property by Marxist regimes of the past (by violence, during and after revolutions, and clearly hard to defend morally) with the straightforward process of taxation that occurs in every single modern economy. The precise details of tax laws and scales are of course open to criticism, and in fact change if a new government is elected. However, the existence of taxation is not a "socialist menace", it is a straightforward fact of life in any functioning economy.
Wrong. As I've said approximately a billion times, "taxation" is a broad term that you mendaciously use to avoid the actual subject, which is ONE FORM of taxation called "direct redistributive taxation," which is the practice of taking money from one person or group of persons (the wealthy) and giving it to another person or group of persons (the poor).

Direct redistributive taxation is pure, unadulterated theft by proxy using the Mace of State as the weapon of coercion and force against the legitimate owner of the value of the labor from whom the value is taken against his will.

Until you are capable of understanding this distinction I'll have better luck arguing with one of Rum's chimpanzees.
So, are you going to tell me which countries do not employ your particular version of evil taxation?

As far as I can see, every form of existing taxation by governments across the world does this, since they all (to a greater or lesser extent) provide various forms of social support, pensions, unemployment benefits etc.

One can of course argue that any given government is extracting too much from a particular section of the population, or being unwisely generous to another, but that is of course a rational argument in the real world, and therefore of no interest to you...
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Re: Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

Post by Seth » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:21 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:Seth, you seem to confuse the expropriation of private property by Marxist regimes of the past (by violence, during and after revolutions, and clearly hard to defend morally) with the straightforward process of taxation that occurs in every single modern economy. The precise details of tax laws and scales are of course open to criticism, and in fact change if a new government is elected. However, the existence of taxation is not a "socialist menace", it is a straightforward fact of life in any functioning economy.
Wrong. As I've said approximately a billion times, "taxation" is a broad term that you mendaciously use to avoid the actual subject, which is ONE FORM of taxation called "direct redistributive taxation," which is the practice of taking money from one person or group of persons (the wealthy) and giving it to another person or group of persons (the poor).

Direct redistributive taxation is pure, unadulterated theft by proxy using the Mace of State as the weapon of coercion and force against the legitimate owner of the value of the labor from whom the value is taken against his will.

Until you are capable of understanding this distinction I'll have better luck arguing with one of Rum's chimpanzees.
So, are you going to tell me which countries do not employ your particular version of evil taxation?
No.
As far as I can see, every form of existing taxation by governments across the world does this, since they all (to a greater or lesser extent) provide various forms of social support, pensions, unemployment benefits etc.
And they are all wrong and morally corrupt in doing so. Your fallacious appeal to common practice is rejected.
One can of course argue that any given government is extracting too much from a particular section of the population, or being unwisely generous to another, but that is of course a rational argument in the real world, and therefore of no interest to you...
Before I will discuss the proportioning of the exaction you must first justify the moral and ethical basis for the exaction. If there is no moral or ethical basis upon which to justify the exaction, then it's theft plain and simple and it doesn't matter if it's a million dollars or a dime that extorted and stolen from someone by proxy because theft is theft and the degree or magnitude of the theft goes only to the appropriate level of punishment of the malefactor, not to whether or not the theft is justifiable.

"Everybody else is doing it" is an argument worthy of a five year old. I thought better of you.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:37 am

Seth wrote:
As far as I can see, every form of existing taxation by governments across the world does this, since they all (to a greater or lesser extent) provide various forms of social support, pensions, unemployment benefits etc.
And they are all wrong and morally corrupt in doing so. Your fallacious appeal to common practice is rejected.
As is your appeal to subjective morals. :coffee:
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