Socialised Medicine Yaaaaaaaayyyy

[FBM]

You appeal to the Second Amendment when it comes to gun rights, I'll appeal to Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 when the issue is the legality of taxation. If my argument is invalid here, then so is yours there.

Evasion. We're discussing your moral and ethical arguments in support of forcible redistribution of wealth by proxy from one person to another to meet the latter's needs or desires, not the 2nd Amendment.

Do you have any moral or ethical argument in support of your position?

No, you're trying to bring moral and ethical red herrings into a discussion of legality. I have no interest in morals/ethics, as I see them as mere conventions. The legal system of taxation encoded in the US Constitution is plenty of justification for US citizens to abide by it, just as the Second Amendment is plenty of justification for US citizens to demand their right to own guns. If you're a US citizen, abide by the rules or change them or leave. Among the rules is that if you evade legal taxation, you have chosen to put yourself in peril of law enforcement.

[Seth]

You appeal to the Second Amendment when it comes to gun rights, I'll appeal to Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 when the issue is the legality of taxation. If my argument is invalid here, then so is yours there.

Evasion. We're discussing your moral and ethical arguments in support of forcible redistribution of wealth by proxy from one person to another to meet the latter's needs or desires, not the 2nd Amendment.

Do you have any moral or ethical argument in support of your position?

No, you're trying to bring moral and ethical red herrings into a discussion of legality.

This isn't about legality. Legality is whatever whomever is in charge says it is, so it's a fallacious appeal to common practice to evade the moral and ethical questions involved in the position that it's morally or ethically acceptable to forcibly redistribute wealth from one person to another by proxy.

I have no interest in morals/ethics, as I see them as mere conventions.

And "the law" isn't? Please. You're just doing what every other socialist I've ever encountered does when pinned down on the issue of forcible redistribution of property by proxy. Evasion and obfuscation.

The legal system of taxation encoded in the US Constitution is plenty of justification for US citizens to abide by it, just as the Second Amendment is plenty of justification for US citizens to demand their right to own guns. If you're a US citizen, abide by the rules or change them or leave. Among the rules is that if you evade legal taxation, you have chosen to put yourself in peril of law enforcement.

Evasion after evasion after evasion. Clearly you cannot morally or ethically support your position, so you lose.

[FBM]

Nope. I just refuse to chase after shifting goal posts. You're happy citing the Second Amendment when it serves your purpose, but are hypocritical when the same approach is used against you.

[Seth]

Nope. I just refuse to chase after shifting goal posts. You're happy citing the Second Amendment when it serves your purpose, but are hypocritical when the same approach is used against you.

Evasion, evasion, evasion. You lose.

[FBM]

Who's evading the arguments? I never made a moral or ethical claim. That was your attempt at evasion by red herring. My appeal to the Constitution is perfectly analagous to your appeal to the Second Amendment. If my argument is fallacious, so is yours. Your argument is busted.

[Hermit]

how do you justify NOT calling the collection of money to be transferred to you by the initiation of force by proxy a "criminal act?"

The 16th amendment to the United States Constitution makes the collection of mandatory income tax NOT a crime and simultaneously makes the evasion of such payments a criminal act that can be rightfully, legally, morally and ethically responded to by using force because, you know, tax evasion is like a criminal act. Or are you wanting to argue now that the use of force against criminals is illegal, unethical and/or immoral?

[SnowLeopard]

It is if the public assistance you accept is taken from taxpayers against their will, which is usually the case. Just because it's a taxman doing the strong-arm work for you doesn't make it any less a theft.

But it's not theft... Theft isn't something that's away willingly by it's owner to another party..

[pErvinalia]

Snowy, from out of the blue! Where you been, man?

[Hermit]

It is if the public assistance you accept is taken from taxpayers against their will, which is usually the case. Just because it's a taxman doing the strong-arm work for you doesn't make it any less a theft.

But it's not theft... Theft isn't something that's away willingly by it's owner to another party..

Seth is not willing to pay taxes, so to him taxes are a form of theft.

[pErvinalia]

Seth bases all his beliefs on a form of morality underpinned by a flawed premise (i.e. natural rights). Until we can convince him that natural rights are a load of bollocks, he'll never change his mind. True, he will chop and change (i.e. shift the goal posts) during an argument between "morality", "law" and his interpretation of the constitution. But it all goes back to this natural rights bollocks.

[SnowLeopard]

It is if the public assistance you accept is taken from taxpayers against their will, which is usually the case. Just because it's a taxman doing the strong-arm work for you doesn't make it any less a theft.

But it's not theft... Theft isn't something that's away willingly by it's owner to another party..

Seth is not willing to pay taxes, so to him taxes are a form of theft.

But no one on this earth is forcing him, or anyone in the USA, UK, France, Germany etc to pay taxes if they don't want to, so when you're giving away something you're not actually obliged to give away, how can it be theft.

Isn't the mating call of many Americans "If you don't love America, then leave!" "Go live in North Korea if you don't love our freedom!" blah blah etc blah. Well..... If you are old enough and financially sound enough to pay taxes, you presumably have sufficient means to acquire a passport and depart for a country/island/plot of land that doesn't require it's citizens to pay income based taxation. It's the same argument many have against unions in the US, workers badgering poor, multi national corporations. "If you don't like your job, get another one!"

Surely the answer is simple. If you don't like paying taxes, if it really bothers you that much, leave.

**Also that should have read 'that's given away willingly', my bad**

[SnowLeopard]

Seth bases all his beliefs on a form of morality underpinned by a flawed premise (i.e. natural rights). Until we can convince him that natural rights are a load of bollocks, he'll never change his mind. True, he will chop and change (i.e. shift the goal posts) during an argument between "morality", "law" and his interpretation of the constitution. But it all goes back to this natural rights bollocks.

Ahh I see ok. Yeah there's no such thing as natural rights. Sadly not even healthcare can be seen as an inalienable human right. Once you're born you have the right to die, and that's it basically. I can't think of any other rights that come naturally do a wild animal. All other rights are granted just inventions created by society for the (hopefully) betterment of our civilization.

[Hermit]

It is if the public assistance you accept is taken from taxpayers against their will, which is usually the case. Just because it's a taxman doing the strong-arm work for you doesn't make it any less a theft.

But it's not theft... Theft isn't something that's away willingly by it's owner to another party..

Seth is not willing to pay taxes, so to him taxes are a form of theft.

But no one on this earth is forcing him, or anyone in the USA, UK, France, Germany etc to pay taxes if they don't want to ... If you don't like paying taxes, if it really bothers you that much, leave.

Actually, the fact of the matter is that all those countries do compel you to pay taxes. If necessary, they do so by threatening to arrest you. There is no country to leave for if we don't like paying taxes. The best we can do is to inherit or acquire sufficient wealth, to become rich enough to wangle our way out of it using offshore companies, transfer pricing and so forth.

[SnowLeopard]

It is if the public assistance you accept is taken from taxpayers against their will, which is usually the case. Just because it's a taxman doing the strong-arm work for you doesn't make it any less a theft.

But it's not theft... Theft isn't something that's away willingly by it's owner to another party..

Seth is not willing to pay taxes, so to him taxes are a form of theft.

But no one on this earth is forcing him, or anyone in the USA, UK, France, Germany etc to pay taxes if they don't want to ... If you don't like paying taxes, if it really bothers you that much, leave.

Actually, the fact of the matter is that all those countries do compel you to pay taxes. If necessary, they do so by threatening to arrest you. There is no country to leave for if we don't like paying taxes. The best we can do is to inherit or acquire sufficient wealth, to become rich enough to wangle our way out of it using offshore companies, transfer pricing and so forth.

Yus, they require you to pay taxes if you choose to inhabit their country that's my point. But you don't Technically have to stay in any country.

As you say, there is no country on earth that doesn't require you to pay taxes, which seems to make whining about taxation a pretty futile effort. So the best bet if you don't like living in the infrastructure that collected taxes have created is to float off to a desert island do a Tom Hanks.

Think of all the freedomz!

I'm surprised the pacific atolls are not infested with libertarians living the dream.

[mistermack]

Actually, the fact of the matter is that all those countries do compel you to pay taxes. If necessary, they do so by threatening to arrest you. There is no country to leave for if we don't like paying taxes. The best we can do is to inherit or acquire sufficient wealth, to become rich enough to wangle our way out of it using offshore companies, transfer pricing and so forth.

That's true, but it just illustrates how ridiculous it is to call taxation theft.

If it's theft to you, but not to every single country on the planet, that should be a hint that it's you that's out of touch with reality, not them.
Trouble is, when you lose touch with reality, it's hard to actually realise that it's happened.