Do you dehumanise others?
- Blind groper
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Re: Do you dehumanise others?
To Seth
You say you never fire warning shots.
But do you not think, in this case, after the jeweller had fired several shots with the intent of killing, but missed, and the robbers curled up in fetal position in the corner, it would have been appropriate to stop shooting and simply hold them till the police arrived? He did not. He kept shooting.
Audley
I said that everyone does this dehumanising thing. Obviously, when I call Zimmerman scum, I am also guilty. Agreed. But my point is that we should try to avoid this act, and treat others as humans.
The New Scientist article points out that, if we dehumanise others, we treat them much more harshly. Dehumanise a criminal, and we may end up calling for the death penalty.
You say you never fire warning shots.
But do you not think, in this case, after the jeweller had fired several shots with the intent of killing, but missed, and the robbers curled up in fetal position in the corner, it would have been appropriate to stop shooting and simply hold them till the police arrived? He did not. He kept shooting.
Audley
I said that everyone does this dehumanising thing. Obviously, when I call Zimmerman scum, I am also guilty. Agreed. But my point is that we should try to avoid this act, and treat others as humans.
The New Scientist article points out that, if we dehumanise others, we treat them much more harshly. Dehumanise a criminal, and we may end up calling for the death penalty.
Re: Do you dehumanise others?
People are fairly good at dehumanising themselves without needing my declaration.
Libertarianism: The belief that out of all the terrible things governments can do, helping people is the absolute worst.
Re: Do you dehumanise others?
Dunno. Do you have a link to the video? If he was blinded by pepper spray how would he know they are curled up in the corner? Were it me, and were I blinded by pepper spray, I would assume that they were lying and were manuvering to attack me again. I might not spray bullets around, but I might well shoot at any sound of movement, provided that the robbers were the only ones in the store. I'd have to see the video to speculate more.Blind groper wrote:To Seth
You say you never fire warning shots.
But do you not think, in this case, after the jeweller had fired several shots with the intent of killing, but missed, and the robbers curled up in fetal position in the corner, it would have been appropriate to stop shooting and simply hold them till the police arrived? He did not. He kept shooting.
Some people forfeit their right to be humanized by acting like vicious animals.Audley
I said that everyone does this dehumanising thing. Obviously, when I call Zimmerman scum, I am also guilty. Agreed. But my point is that we should try to avoid this act, and treat others as humans.
The New Scientist article points out that, if we dehumanise others, we treat them much more harshly. Dehumanise a criminal, and we may end up calling for the death penalty.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
- Blind groper
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Re: Do you dehumanise others?
Seth
I saw the video on TV. However, the only action the two robbers took against the jeweller was a momentary squirt of pepper spray. After that, they were utterly focussed on smash and grab till the jeweller stood up and started blasting. I guess we will not know how much he could see, but he sure looked like he was firing at the robbers, however ineffectually. We also have to ask why he closed and locked the shop doors remotely, if he was not determined to kill them.
Here in New Zealand, we have a more enlightened self defense law, which I believe is similar to that in Australia, and Britain, and probably in all the more civilised western nations.
Our law says you can use REASONABLE force to defend yourself or someone else. The definition of 'reasonable' is nailed down by precedent in court cases. There was a case not long ago of a farmer who saw a crook making off with his quad bike, and he fired his shotgun. Got the thief in the back, but did not kill him, or even seriously wound him. The farmer was, however, prosecuted. Shooting someone who is running away was not considered self defense and was therefore illegal. Shooting a crook who is not threatening you is not a 'reasonable' use of force.
I saw the video on TV. However, the only action the two robbers took against the jeweller was a momentary squirt of pepper spray. After that, they were utterly focussed on smash and grab till the jeweller stood up and started blasting. I guess we will not know how much he could see, but he sure looked like he was firing at the robbers, however ineffectually. We also have to ask why he closed and locked the shop doors remotely, if he was not determined to kill them.
Here in New Zealand, we have a more enlightened self defense law, which I believe is similar to that in Australia, and Britain, and probably in all the more civilised western nations.
Our law says you can use REASONABLE force to defend yourself or someone else. The definition of 'reasonable' is nailed down by precedent in court cases. There was a case not long ago of a farmer who saw a crook making off with his quad bike, and he fired his shotgun. Got the thief in the back, but did not kill him, or even seriously wound him. The farmer was, however, prosecuted. Shooting someone who is running away was not considered self defense and was therefore illegal. Shooting a crook who is not threatening you is not a 'reasonable' use of force.
- laklak
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Re: Do you dehumanise others?
It's not legal to shoot a fleeing criminal here either, or at least not in most states. I think Texas allows the use of deadly force to recover your property. I often think about moving to Texas.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
- FBM
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Re: Do you dehumanise others?
Well, I'm going to try to re-rail the discussion to keep it from being moved to the Gnu Club:
I've found that if you leave people to their own devices, most of them will dehumanize themselves eventually.
I've found that if you leave people to their own devices, most of them will dehumanize themselves eventually.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
- laklak
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Re: Do you dehumanise others?
Yep. Wait long enough and they turn into worm food.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Re: Do you dehumanise others?
Even Jesus dehumanised himself.
...when he turned back into a god.
...when he turned back into a god.
Libertarianism: The belief that out of all the terrible things governments can do, helping people is the absolute worst.
- Seabass
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Re: Do you dehumanise others?
It is wrong to dehumanize people! Except for those backward, sick, uncivilized, barbaric Americans of course.Blind groper wrote:Subject taken from New Scientist magazine. 18 January 2014, page 39.
Researchers have found that all humans have a tendency to treat people, not of their family, tribal, or social group, as less than human. This leads to treating others very badly.
Adolph Hitler referred to the Jewish people as viruses, parasites, and rats. We know where that led. The Hutus referred to Tutsis as cockroaches. We also know where that led.
I had the personal experience, when in Papua New Guinea, of seeing local tribespeople referring to others not of their tribe as less than human. The result is that those Papuans will assault, rape, or murder non fellow tribespeople as if they were so much trash, while treating their fellows with respect and consideration.
The fact that dehumanising others is natural does not make it desirable. I have this idea that the degree to which an individual is civilised depends on the degree to which they can overcome this tendency. Anyone who treats others as if they were inhuman are barbarians.
This extends to those we might normally think of as enemies. For example, if you catch a guy burgling your home, and you have a gun while the burglar does not, do you shoot him? If you do, that is a sign you are in the act of dehumanising another person, which makes you a barbarian. A more 'civilised' inidividual will use his superiority in weapons to arrest the burglar, instead of firing.
Some people at New York University showed a lot of students a computer program in which a barbie doll image was slowly morphed into human. They were asked to note at which point they considered the image to be human. Those told the model for the image was from another university left it much later to identify the image as human, compared to those who were told the image came from a student at their university. This shows that the tendency exists even in sophisticated western peoples.
Creating 'teams' and including others on your team reduces this tendency greatly, at least for those teams.
Nationalism may be unhealthy, in that it creates a class of people in your mind - the 'others' - who are seen as less human.
How do you rate yourself? How do you rate those around you? Are you and they civilised, or barbaric, actively treating others as less than human?
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka
- FBM
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Re: Do you dehumanise others?
Some of my best friends are dehumanized.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."
Re: Do you dehumanise others?
When I was a child, and anti-British sentiment was higher, I'd often hear the British referred to as "British bastards".
I'm not sure if that is dehumanising as bastards are a sub-set of humans born out of wedlock (or something). I guess some types of human are considered worse than others so even though we don't call them by non-human names like "pig-dogs" or what have you, we still use the terms or labels we have for certain types of people in a derogatory way. Which I've always found retarded.
I'm not sure if that is dehumanising as bastards are a sub-set of humans born out of wedlock (or something). I guess some types of human are considered worse than others so even though we don't call them by non-human names like "pig-dogs" or what have you, we still use the terms or labels we have for certain types of people in a derogatory way. Which I've always found retarded.
Libertarianism: The belief that out of all the terrible things governments can do, helping people is the absolute worst.
Re: Do you dehumanise others?
Blind groper wrote:Seth
I saw the video on TV. However, the only action the two robbers took against the jeweller was a momentary squirt of pepper spray. After that, they were utterly focussed on smash and grab till the jeweller stood up and started blasting.
Robbery is robbery. If you don't want to get shot at, don't try to rob people. They were armed with deadly weapons, which is to say the implements which they used to "smash and grab" and they could just as easily have beaten him to death with them. He's not required to wait and see if they are going to smash his displays or his head.
Er, perhaps because he didn't want them to escape with his jewelry...He is authorized to arrest a person committing a crime in his presence after all.I guess we will not know how much he could see, but he sure looked like he was firing at the robbers, however ineffectually. We also have to ask why he closed and locked the shop doors remotely, if he was not determined to kill them.
You can call it what you like, but it's barbaric and evil to deny the victim of a violent crime the tools needed to protect himself or to play armchair quarterback from the safety of your basement.Here in New Zealand, we have a more enlightened self defense law, which I believe is similar to that in Australia, and Britain, and probably in all the more civilised western nations.
Somebody comes at me with pepper spray and a hammer I find it entirely reasonable to shoot to center mass in order to prevent him from continuing that conduct.Our law says you can use REASONABLE force to defend yourself or someone else.
The definition of 'reasonable' is nailed down by precedent in court cases.
Sadly true down there. Then again it's also been nailed down by both precedent and law here, so who cares what what happens to you.
Guess what? It's not legal here either, even for police. There used to be "fleeing felon" laws all over America that allowed police, and even civilians to do exactly that, but they were thrown out by the courts.There was a case not long ago of a farmer who saw a crook making off with his quad bike, and he fired his shotgun. Got the thief in the back, but did not kill him, or even seriously wound him. The farmer was, however, prosecuted. Shooting someone who is running away was not considered self defense and was therefore illegal. Shooting a crook who is not threatening you is not a 'reasonable' use of force.
The question here would be whether the jeweler, when he fired, "reasonably believed" that his life, or the life of another person was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm, and whether he reasonably believed that a lesser degree of force would be inadequate to terminate the threat.
As I said, if he walked over to them cowering in the corner and shot them calmly in the head the answer would be no, he didn't have legal justification to do so. But if he was blinded by pepper spray, and was fearful that the robbers would turn on him and beat his brains out with their "smash and grab" tools, then I'd venture a guess that the DA would conclude that he held a reasonable fear and was therefore authorized to use, or attempt to use, deadly physical force.
The description you provide, of him firing wildly from behind the counter after being pepper-sprayed in the face leads me to a strong belief that he had a very reasonable fear indeed. In any event, I'll always err in favor of the victim in such situations, since they had nothing to do with instigating the attack and are justifiably excused for overreacting to such a brutal, sudden and unusual event.
Again, the lesson is: "If you don't want to get shot, don't try to rob people."
Pretty simple, neh?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: Do you dehumanise others?
You can even use deadly force to prevent a burglar from escaping with someone else's property. That happened in Texas just a year or two again when a neighbor saw two guys burgling his neighbor's house and shot both of them dead with a shotgun while on the phone with 911 because one of them moved towards him and the other refused to surrender.laklak wrote:It's not legal to shoot a fleeing criminal here either, or at least not in most states. I think Texas allows the use of deadly force to recover your property. I often think about moving to Texas.
The lesson is: "Don't burgle people's houses, you might get shot."
Pretty simple, neh?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
- laklak
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Re: Do you dehumanise others?
Pretty much my take on it. Don't want to get shot? Don't break into my home.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Re: Do you dehumanise others?
...without a gunlaklak wrote:Pretty much my take on it. Don't want to get shot? Don't break into my home.

Libertarianism: The belief that out of all the terrible things governments can do, helping people is the absolute worst.
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