Egypt and Indonesia are not very secular compared to Western / Northern European countries. And Islam has had a phase of enlightenment in the past which should be a warning to us: The secular west can turn into a religious shit-hole again. And it needn't be from an outside religion. We need to stand guard against that.rEvolutionist wrote: Yeah, Jim made the good point that the West experienced the enlightenment, whereas the Islamic world didn't. Therefore they don't have the same passion for secularism that we have. Although, there's certainly large secular parts of the Islamic world, eg Turkey, Egypt, and Indonesia.
UK anti-Muslim hate crime soars, police figures show
Re: UK anti-Muslim hate crime soars, police figures show
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Re: UK anti-Muslim hate crime soars, police figures show
I don't. It is their behaviour that I find socially unacceptable, not Muslims in general, but the tosspots who claim to speak for all of them. Many of such people are the type that actively encourage people like Adebowale to kill, who think women should be thrashed, gay people should be executed and preside over illegal Sharia courts in London and Bradford, support and sustain the monstrous idiocy of "honour killing". Yet leave a bacon rasher on a street near them and they cry persecution. Fuck them.Seth wrote:Why should you or anyone else give a damn about what someone else believes so long as their actual behavior is socially acceptable and lawful?
It is never about belief, it is about their actual behaviour, it is incompatible with the state they live in benefit from and want to tear down. I'd be quite happy to see those fuckers disappeared. They are the ones who make life miserable for most Muslims by antagonising the majority and creating a wedge between our citizens and then whining when some of that majority reacts to such antagonism.
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Re: UK anti-Muslim hate crime soars, police figures show
Oh please, Buddhism is absolutely a religion. As for Myanmar (no Burma anymore), if true it sounds like it's either a) pseudo-Buddhists involved; or b) self-defense against attempts at genocide by Muslims.rEvolutionist wrote:True, but Buddhism isnt' really a religion, it's more a (peaceful) philosophy towards life. Although, interestingly, Buddhists in I think Burma(?) have been in the process of slaughtering Muslims for a few months now.Seth wrote:Certainly some religious groupthink does. But then again so does some irreligious groupthink.rEvolutionist wrote:Most muslims do, Seth. The one's who don't, though, are definitely a problem. Seems to me that the UK is heading for more religious problems in this regard in the future. Religion really does poison everything.
As I said, it's not about thought or belief, it's about actions. I can't agree, for example, that Buddhism "poisons everything."
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
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Re: UK anti-Muslim hate crime soars, police figures show
The crusades were generally led by secular rulers; the inquisition wasn't a war at all.JimC wrote:Tell that to the victims of the crusaders, the inquisition, and all the victims of Europe's panoply of wars of religion.Warren Dew wrote:I think you are giving the enlightenment too much credit. The fact is, in the earliest years, Christianity spread and became a major religion due to peaceful conversion, while Islam spread due to conquest; Mohammed led nations and armies, while Jesus did not. Christianity always had to coexist with secular law; Islam didn't.JimC wrote:I agree, with the rider that the change to the earlier christian tendency to want to rule the secular world as well is due to the dogged efforts of many brave people over the centuries, particularly during the enlightenment. If left to its own devices, a christian hierarchy of one sort or another would still want to rule the roost. They did not pull their own teeth...Seth wrote:I don't know if there are more extremists in Islam, but certainly those that exist are far, far more overtly violent and dangerous.rEvolutionist wrote:I had a big argument with people on my facebook wall the other week about Islamic terrorism. I basically said that percentage wise, there are more extremists in Islam than there are in Christianity. I don't actually know if that is correct, but it seems about right. What's the deal. Am I right. Is there something inherently wrong with Islam, or is it a case of the socio-political scene in Islamic countries. I.e. it's a volatile mix between religion and politics?
And yes, it's a volatile mix because Islam doesn't purport to be simply a set of religious beliefs and practices as, for example, Christianity does, it purports to be BOTH a set of religious beliefs AND a mandatory model for social governance, which is what makes it particularly dangerous. It's one thing for the Pope to revile homosexual behavior, but its another thing entirely for the government to base its laws and punishments on what the Pope says about something. Modern Christianity has the benefit of being a non-coerced voluntary grouping that (in the US at least) has no legislative or executive powers, whereas modern Islam holds itself out as a government force requiring involuntary obedience to religious beliefs.
Politics isn't war either. The fact that Christianity got its start through proselytization and politics, rather than through conquest as Islam did, explains a lot about the differences between the two religions.NineBerry wrote:Starting in the 3rd century, Christianity got very much in bed with politics, first in some provinces of the Roman empire, then in Rome itself.
Islamic conquest extended far beyond Arabia, including nearly all of North Africa as well as Persia. It's true that some of this occurred after Mohammed's life, but it was still done by religious leaders, not secular rulers who were different from the religious leaders.While Islam started off getting power with conquest on the Arabian peninsula, further expansion in Africa and expansion towards the east was to the bigger extent done by proselytizing, although certainly as soon as there was a muslim majority, other religions would be harshly regulated or completely outlawed.
And Charlemagne was not the head of the Christian religion at the time. Certainly Christianity piggy backed on his conquests, but that's a different thing from the conquest itself being religious in nature.Svartalf wrote:Plus let's remember that much of Germany was made christian at the edge of the sword by none else than Charlemagne.
Re: UK anti-Muslim hate crime soars, police figures show
Socialism and individual rights are mutually exclusive concepts. Certain socialist societies may gloss on a facade of recognizing and respecting individual rights, but the entire concept of socialism requires that the will of the majority always prevail over the minority eventually. Thus, in all socialist societies the gloss of individual rights only persists as long as the exercise of those rights by the minority do not conflict with the will of the majority, which ultimately always takes precedence. Thus there are no actual "civil rights" at all, but rather civil permissions and revokable tolerance for particular activities that may be revoked by the government at will.rEvolutionist wrote: No, it's just another example of you to fail to understand what socialism actually is. There's nothing in socialism that precludes a constitution of rights. I for one support constitutions, and I'm a pseudo socialist.
Take the "right to free speech" in the UK, which doesn't actually exist, as demonstrated by the fact that the government can and did flatly ban any sort of political protest whatsoever within something like a kilometer of Parliament merely because the presence of demonstrators was annoying members of Parliament.
In the US, the right to peaceably assemble and petition our government for redress of grievances is a carefully-protected individual right which the government has no authority to revoke and very limited authority to regulate at all.
You really ought to educate yourself about your own political beliefs before you bloviate your ignorance any further.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: UK anti-Muslim hate crime soars, police figures show
Wayback Machine fallacy. Further debunking unnecessary.JimC wrote: Tell that to the victims of the crusaders, the inquisition, and all the victims of Europe's panoply of wars of religion.![]()
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
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Re: UK anti-Muslim hate crime soars, police figures show
That simply shows you have missed my point. The evidence shows that christianity in Europe was whole-heartedly part of a very violent culture of the time, both in terms of warfare against and torture of other dissenting christians, and expansion outside. The church at the time worked with, and expected to control, the secular leaders that they conferred legitimacy on.Seth wrote:Wayback Machine fallacy. Further debunking unnecessary.JimC wrote: Tell that to the victims of the crusaders, the inquisition, and all the victims of Europe's panoply of wars of religion.![]()
They were forced to retreat from exerting secular power, they didn't choose to give it up as a sudden revelation that their religion should be a peaceful one. They trailed the changing zeitgeist, kicking and screaming the whole time, but tamed they were.
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!
And my gin!
Re: UK anti-Muslim hate crime soars, police figures show
Okay. Accepted.JimC wrote:That simply shows you have missed my point. The evidence shows that christianity in Europe was whole-heartedly part of a very violent culture of the time, both in terms of warfare against and torture of other dissenting christians, and expansion outside. The church at the time worked with, and expected to control, the secular leaders that they conferred legitimacy on.Seth wrote:Wayback Machine fallacy. Further debunking unnecessary.JimC wrote: Tell that to the victims of the crusaders, the inquisition, and all the victims of Europe's panoply of wars of religion.![]()
They were forced to retreat from exerting secular power, they didn't choose to give it up as a sudden revelation that their religion should be a peaceful one. They trailed the changing zeitgeist, kicking and screaming the whole time, but tamed they were.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
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Re: UK anti-Muslim hate crime soars, police figures show
Why don't you look it up, Seth, instead of inventing shit. Myanmar is a buddhist country, not a Muslim country. You can't pull the no-true-scotsman here.Seth wrote:Oh please, Buddhism is absolutely a religion. As for Myanmar (no Burma anymore), if true it sounds like it's either a) pseudo-Buddhists involved; or b) self-defense against attempts at genocide by Muslims.rEvolutionist wrote:True, but Buddhism isnt' really a religion, it's more a (peaceful) philosophy towards life. Although, interestingly, Buddhists in I think Burma(?) have been in the process of slaughtering Muslims for a few months now.Seth wrote:Certainly some religious groupthink does. But then again so does some irreligious groupthink.rEvolutionist wrote:Most muslims do, Seth. The one's who don't, though, are definitely a problem. Seems to me that the UK is heading for more religious problems in this regard in the future. Religion really does poison everything.
As I said, it's not about thought or belief, it's about actions. I can't agree, for example, that Buddhism "poisons everything."
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Re: UK anti-Muslim hate crime soars, police figures show
Once again you show you can't even follow a simple argument. We weren't talking about individual rights (even though you're wrong on that point as well, Quelle surprise). Your stupid point was that teh muzlims would form a majority and therefore could institute sharia or anything they liked. That's bullshit. A constitution that maintains secular liberal democracy would forbid that. Same as your jizz encrusted constitution, you dimwit.Seth wrote:Socialism and individual rights are mutually exclusive concepts.rEvolutionist wrote: No, it's just another example of you to fail to understand what socialism actually is. There's nothing in socialism that precludes a constitution of rights. I for one support constitutions, and I'm a pseudo socialist.
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"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
Re: UK anti-Muslim hate crime soars, police figures show
I am. I'm unsure of what you're talking about, your posts being so incomprehensible and all.rEvolutionist wrote:Once again you show you can't even follow a simple argument. We weren't talking about individual rightsSeth wrote:Socialism and individual rights are mutually exclusive concepts.rEvolutionist wrote: No, it's just another example of you to fail to understand what socialism actually is. There's nothing in socialism that precludes a constitution of rights. I for one support constitutions, and I'm a pseudo socialist.
(even though you're wrong on that point as well, Quelle surprise). Your stupid point was that teh muzlims would form a majority and therefore could institute sharia or anything they liked. That's bullshit. A constitution that maintains secular liberal democracy would forbid that. Same as your jizz encrusted constitution,
Not if the majority (comprised of Muslims) simply amends the constitution to make it a theocracy. The problem with socialism is that the very concept demands that the majority has its way. That's why it's called "socialism."
Dude, take a pill. Go for a walk in the sunshine or something, you're losing it.you dimwit.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
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Re: UK anti-Muslim hate crime soars, police figures show
I'm sick of dumb arguments from you and other conservatives. Can't you lot lift your game?
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
Re: UK anti-Muslim hate crime soars, police figures show
I'm afraid it's not our arguments that are dumb, rEv....rEvolutionist wrote:I'm sick of dumb arguments from you and other conservatives. Can't you lot lift your game?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
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Re: UK anti-Muslim hate crime soars, police figures show
There were no secular rulers as such at the time. At least, the distinction between temporal and spiritual powers was blurred to the point of meaninglessness. Kings ruled by divine right and Popes raised armies on par with any emperor in those days, and they were not shy about using them. Generals were often enough bishops.Warren Dew wrote:The crusades were generally led by secular rulers; the inquisition wasn't a war at all.
A high point of secular papal potency occurred in 1076 when the third emperor of the Salian dynasty, Henry IV, King of the Holy Roman Empire, who was one of the most powerful men in Europe, had a bit of a disagreement with Pope Gregory VII. Gregory excommunicated him over it. Henry's position as a ruler had suddenly become untenable. Crossing the Alps in bare feet, he walked to Canossa to ask the Pope for forgiveness. The Pope kept him waiting in the January 1077 snow outside the gates for three days. If Henry had had sufficient armed forces to raise against the papal ones, he would not have humbled himself as he did.
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