Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

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Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

Post by Bella Fortuna » Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:49 pm

It would offend my sensibilities to sell homeopathy, but would I have the right to refuse to touch woo if I was employed at a place that sold it? Of course not. If I knew that was part of the job going into it and I objected, I shouldn't have got a job there in the first place.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... -pork.html
Muslim staff working for Marks & Spencer have been given permission to refuse to serve customers buying alcohol or pork products

Its policy decision has highlighted a split among the big food retailers over whether religious staff should be excused certain jobs.

In contrast to M&S, Sainsbury’s said it had issued official guidelines that stated there was no reason why staff who did not drink alcohol or eat pork for religious reasons could not handle the goods.

The advice followed consultations with religious groups, said a spokesman.

Tesco said it treated each case on its merits, but said it “made no sense” to employ staff on a till who refused to touch certain items for religious reasons.



Asda said it would not deploy Muslims on tills who objected to handling alcohol, while Morrisons, which is based in Bradford where there is a large Muslim community, said it had widespread experience of dealing with the issue and would “respect and work around anyone’s wishes not to handle specific products for religious or cultural reasons”.

At M&S, Muslim staff who do not wish to handle alcohol or pork have been told they can politely request that customers choose another till at which to pay.

At one of its stores in central London last week, customers waiting with goods that included pork or alcohol were told by a Muslim checkout worker to wait until another till became available. The assistant was extremely apologetic at having to ask customers to wait.

One customer, who declined to be named, said: “I had one bottle of champagne, and the lady, who was wearing a headscarf, was very apologetic but said she could not serve me. She told me to wait until another member of staff was available.

“I was taken aback. I was a bit surprised. I’ve never come across that before.”

Customers trying to buy alcoholic drinks for Christmas were also asked to wait.

An M&S spokesman said: “We recognise that some of our employees practise religions that restrict the food or drink they can handle, or that mean they cannot work at certain times.

“M&S promotes an environment free from discrimination and so, where specific requests are made, we will always make reasonable adjustments to accommodate them, whilst ensuring high levels of customer service.”

The policy applies throughout its 700-plus stores. The spokesman said the policy of tolerance applied to other religions, so, for example, Christians who did not want to work on Sundays and religious Jews who chose not to work on Saturdays would also be excused. “This is something we decide on a case-by-case basis,” the spokesman added.

Sainsbury’s policy is set out in a booklet called The Little Book of Faith, which was issued by its human-resources department.

A spokesman said: “We have guidelines in place that set out the requirements and beliefs of different religions, which we have previously discussed and agreed with religious organisations and community groups.

“We treat everyone fairly, so although our colleagues on tills or replenishing stock will be asked to handle alcohol and meat, we will always work closely with individuals to ensure we are inclusive and fair to all.”

Sainsbury’s guidance advises that all staff — regardless of religious beliefs — are able to handle meat and alcohol. In other words, the same rules apply to everyone, irrespective of religion.

“If a [religious] belief involves not eating or drinking something in particular, they can still handle the food or drink as part of their job,” said a Sainsbury’s source.

The supermarket added that it would consult on a “case-by-case basis” if need be.

Morrisons said it had been a long-standing, unwritten rule that Muslim staff could opt out of serving alcohol.

A Morrisons spokesman said: “We would respect and work around anyone’s wishes not to handle specific products for religious or cultural reasons, regardless of the time of year.”

A Tesco spokesman said: “We don’t have a specific policy and take a pragmatic approach if a colleague raises concerns about a job they have been asked to do.”

She added: “It would not make sense to have somebody on the till if they cannot handle certain items.”

Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, the former bishop of Rochester, who has voiced fears that Britain is losing its Christian identity and warned of the dangers of the influence of radical Islamic beliefs, said supermarket customers risked feeling uncomfortable if they were told they would have to wait to be served just because they were buying alcohol.

He said: “If supermarkets do not put up a notice saying this desk does not handle alcoholic beverages, it runs the risk shoppers could be humiliated when they get to the checkout.”

Shopworkers — Christian or not — have the right to refuse to work on Sundays, although Dr Nazir-Ali believes many choose not to exercise that right for fear of missing out on promotions or losing wages.

A report issued in 2005 by the Muslim Council for Britain and the former Department of Trade and Industry considers the example of a devout Muslim asked to work on the meat section of a supermarket.

The official guidance concludes: “If you feel that you cannot handle pork as a Muslim, then you should discuss this with your manager.

“A policy that all staff must work in the meat section of the supermarket may amount to indirect discrimination since it disadvantages Muslims.

“Your employer should try and accommodate your request where possible.”
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Re: Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

Post by cronus » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:00 pm

I guess this won't be discussed by all hands at the pub after work?
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Re: Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

Post by charlou » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:01 pm

Asda said it would not deploy Muslims on tills who objected to handling alcohol, while Morrisons, which is based in Bradford where there is a large Muslim community, said it had widespread experience of dealing with the issue and would “respect and work around anyone’s wishes not to handle specific products for religious or cultural reasons”.
Interesting demographic point ...
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Re: Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

Post by charlou » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:03 pm

Agree that religion shouldn't be a factor in retail in a secular society ... would say any society, but you know, reality ... /irony
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Re: Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

Post by JimC » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:07 pm

...“If a [religious] belief involves not eating or drinking something in particular, they can still handle the food or drink as part of their job,” said a Sainsbury’s source....
Exactly, well said the Sainsbury person...

With pork, perhaps not actually cutting it up, but once it's wrapped, it shouldn't be an issue. And surely the prohibition on Muslims concerning alcohol is about not drinking it, not a brief touch of a bottle that contains it...
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Re: Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

Post by Svartalf » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:11 pm

Them muslims just want us as miserable as they are by denying us the good things they are forbidden. Any store that caused me any kind of trouble when buying products sold there would lose my custom and get complaints, and I'd signal it to conssumers associations...
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Re: Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

Post by PsychoSerenity » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:12 pm

I might have to go and get a job at M&S so they can pay me not to do any work because my new religion forbids me to not take advantage of stupid concessions for religious beliefs, and if they don't let me they're discriminating!
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

Post by NineBerry » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:14 pm

Bella Fortuna wrote:It would offend my sensibilities to sell homeopathy, but would I have the right to refuse to touch woo if I was employed at a place that sold it? Of course not. If I knew that was part of the job going into it and I objected, I shouldn't have got a job there in the first place.
I agree. But with department stores like Marks & Spencer, if it is anything like the department stores I know, you have different departments for different groups of products and you usually pay at the checkout associated to the department the products belong to. So for someone being employed in the male underwear department, it would be very rare to be faced with customers who want to buy food or beverages. So I can understand that someone working as a shop assistant in fashion might not think about this issue when taking a job in some fashion department in a department store.

On the other hand, the whole thing is very inconsequential.

If you just don't like selling alcohol and pork because you think they are somehow "dirty" or "icky" then your objections are not religious, because that is not what the religions say. Islam for example doesn't ban using alcohol for all kinds of stuff like as part of cleaning agents, as long as you don't consume it. Muslims are told not to sell alcoholic beverages because they do thereby support other people consuming it, not because it was a sin touching the stuff or something like that.

If you do believe that you are forbidden by your God to sell alcohol or forbidden food because that would "encourage" vice, there is hardly any department in a department store where you could work because in each and every one you will be faced with products or customers or combinations of customers and products that would mean "encouraging" something that Islam or similar religions consider forbidden. Can anyone think of a department in a department store or in fact any line of profession in a non-islamic country that would exclude having to "encourage" sinful stuff (except maybe in the religion itself)?
Last edited by NineBerry on Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

Post by NineBerry » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:22 pm

Imam: "As good Muslims you shouldn't be selling alcohol!"
Nasreddin Hoca "But what about the devote brothers that don't want to make business with unbelievers, where are they then supposed to get their liquor from?"

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Re: Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

Post by piscator » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:32 pm

Simple profit motive at work here - They just don't want to lose business by alienating the local Muslim communities.

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Re: Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

Post by klr » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:38 pm

Bella Fortuna wrote:
...
Muslim staff working for Marks & Spencer have been given permission to refuse to serve customers buying alcohol or pork products

Its policy decision has highlighted a split among the big food retailers over whether religious staff should be excused certain jobs.

In contrast to M&S, Sainsbury’s said it had issued official guidelines that stated there was no reason why staff who did not drink alcohol or eat pork for religious reasons could not handle the goods.

The advice followed consultations with religious groups, said a spokesman.

Tesco said it treated each case on its merits, but said it “made no sense” to employ staff on a till who refused to touch certain items for religious reasons.

...
Damn straight.
At M&S, Muslim staff who do not wish to handle alcohol or pork have been told they can politely request that customers choose another till at which to pay.

At one of its stores in central London last week, customers waiting with goods that included pork or alcohol were told by a Muslim checkout worker to wait until another till became available. The assistant was extremely apologetic at having to ask customers to wait.

One customer, who declined to be named, said: “I had one bottle of champagne, and the lady, who was wearing a headscarf, was very apologetic but said she could not serve me. She told me to wait until another member of staff was available.

“I was taken aback. I was a bit surprised. I’ve never come across that before.”

Customers trying to buy alcoholic drinks for Christmas were also asked to wait.
As a customer, I would absolutely explode in that situation. Maybe M&S should make it clear to shoppers which staff are refusing to handle certain goods?

I hope M&S suffers a PR and customer backlash for this. What next? Devout Catholic staff refusing to handle contraceptives? What if your shopping basket included a selection of items which meant that no-one person currently on the checkouts could serve you? And what happens when some staff take an usually strict view of what they won't handle? There could be additives in some food or components in non-food goods that someone might turn their nose up at ...
piscator wrote:Simple profit motive at work here - They just don't want to lose business by alienating the local Muslim communities.
Alienation works both ways.

EDIT: For the record, I don't drink, and never have done. But it's the principle that matters.
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Re: Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

Post by Svartalf » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:39 pm

piscator wrote:Simple profit motive at work here - They just don't want to lose business by alienating the local Muslim communities.
Let's see where they lose more business from... meats and booze are expensive products, and the people who'll go elsewhere may tip the balance ... now, if they just decided to placate the mmuslims by stopping to sell them at all, they would have somewhere to stand and be making a real business decision, but if they have muslim till personnel in alimentation sections that will cause customers inconvenience by not handling certain products, they deserve to lose custom, a lot of it.
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Re: Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

Post by NineBerry » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:41 pm

In the near future, there won't be any need to buy alcohol anyway. Just stand close to someone with a mobile phone:
A team of scientists recently discovered a way to send encoded text messages through evaporated vodka.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/scientists- ... d-alcohol/

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Re: Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

Post by piscator » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:45 pm

Svartalf wrote:
piscator wrote:Simple profit motive at work here - They just don't want to lose business by alienating the local Muslim communities.
Let's see where they lose more business from... meats and booze are expensive products, and the people who'll go elsewhere may tip the balance ... now, if they just decided to placate the mmuslims by stopping to sell them at all, they would have somewhere to stand and be making a real business decision, but if they have muslim till personnel in alimentation sections that will cause customers inconvenience by not handling certain products, they deserve to lose custom, a lot of it.
They probably ran a MiniMax on that before they decided. :pardon:

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Re: Muslim staff at M&S can refuse to sell alcohol & pork

Post by klr » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:47 pm

Svartalf wrote:
piscator wrote:Simple profit motive at work here - They just don't want to lose business by alienating the local Muslim communities.
Let's see where they lose more business from... meats and booze are expensive products, and the people who'll go elsewhere may tip the balance ... now, if they just decided to placate the mmuslims by stopping to sell them at all, they would have somewhere to stand and be making a real business decision, but if they have muslim till personnel in alimentation sections that will cause customers inconvenience by not handling certain products, they deserve to lose custom, a lot of it.
Not only that, but if people take their meat and booze spending elsewhere, they'll likely take a lot more as well.
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