Saving the Internet from the NSA

[Mysturji]

Al Qaeda set out to destroy America. It has already succeeded. The "War on Terror" has already wrecked the old American values, and replaced them with paranoia, repression, and spying on its own citizens.

Big Brother is here!

IMHO that happened quite some time before 9/11. It had been creeping gradually closer ever since WWII, spurred on by the cold war, enabled by technology.
Al-Qaeda just locked the door by convincing "The Right" that it was "A Good Thing", which is another reason why Snowden's leaks weren't really damaging, just embarrassing. The gov't don't need to hide their secrecy any more - it's generally accepted as proper by the tea-baggers, who make so much noise no-one else can get a word in.

[orpheus]

There's also the question of whether or not the NSA's spying is at all effective in stopping terrorism. They've already been caught lying - hugely exaggerating about how many terrorist plots spying has helped them identify and prevent. As I recall, that number isn't around 50 (as they originally claimed), but more like zero.

Plus: spying on Angela Merkel? Yeah, that really helps stop terrorism.

No, the NSA answers to nobody, has done not much - if anything - to prevent terrorism, lies about it, and spies on as many people as it can simply because it can. And we should trust them? Riiight.

[Audley Strange]

I don't trust the National Insecurity Agency (or really any part of Government) to be free of corruption and ineptitude and to be honest it all reminds me a bit of the movie Brazil. In saying that though, the cops can stop you any time and rummage through your stuff, many people give away all their private information away freely on competition sites, fora, social media etc etc. So at what point do we stop going "ohh the terrible government!" and start recognising we're shouting in the street anyway. A street practically designed for eavesdropping, perhaps we should be more cautious on what we communicate or who we vote in to protect us?

I don't like them snooping either, but I'd still rather they found a way to get the under 16s the fuck off the net. Create Junior net or something, they are as toxic for the environment as it is for them.

[JimC]

... I'd still rather they found a way to get the under 16s the fuck off the net. Create Junior net or something, they are as toxic for the environment as it is for them...

[Seth]

There's also the question of whether or not the NSA's spying is at all effective in stopping terrorism. They've already been caught lying - hugely exaggerating about how many terrorist plots spying has helped them identify and prevent. As I recall, that number isn't around 50 (as they originally claimed), but more like zero.

And you know this how, exactly?

Plus: spying on Angela Merkel? Yeah, that really helps stop terrorism.

Um...Germany was one of the vendors of chemicals and equipment to Saddam, and it's not at all unlikely that they also supply Iraq.

No, the NSA answers to nobody, has done not much - if anything - to prevent terrorism, lies about it, and spies on as many people as it can simply because it can. And we should trust them? Riiight.

And you would know the NSA "has done not much...to prevent terrorism" how exactly.

And I don't trust them at all, I just recognize that they serve a legitimate and necessary purpose.

[JimC]

Seth wrote:

And I don't trust them at all, I just recognize that they serve a legitimate and necessary purpose.

It can be true that the NSA serves a "legitimate and necessary purpose", and also true that many of their activities go way beyond any reasonable remit. Government institutions have their own agendas, and they love to expand their empires, unless held firmly in check by both judicial process and elected representatives doing their job. Security services in any country can do a better job than many other institutions at resisting being pruned or controlled, because they can cite secrecy and "national interest". Sometimes that will be legitimate, sometimes not...

[Audley Strange]

... I'd still rather they found a way to get the under 16s the fuck off the net. Create Junior net or something, they are as toxic for the environment as it is for them...

Exactly when I was their age this was all poorly rendered eight bit trees!

[Blind groper]

I would like to see anti-terrorism agencies focus on their task. I have no doubt at all that Al Qaeda has been kicked in the teeth, and that the cause is information gained by various "spy" agencies. Not necessarily the NSA, of course. My best guess is that Al Qaeda has been inflitrated by agents from the USA, Britain, Israel, Pakistan and who knows how many other parties.

We have seen this result in terrorist plots thwarted. Bomb attacks defused. Al Qaeda people killed in drone attacks. And so on. Al Qaeda has not had a single major success since 9/11. Finagle only knows how many lives have been saved.

But this is from properly focussed intelligence gathering. Not from intercepting email messages from friends and allies.

[orpheus]

There's also the question of whether or not the NSA's spying is at all effective in stopping terrorism. They've already been caught lying - hugely exaggerating about how many terrorist plots spying has helped them identify and prevent. As I recall, that number isn't around 50 (as they originally claimed), but more like zero.

And you know this how, exactly?

Have you been reading the news at all? This has been reported dozens of times at least. Here's one account:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... isleading/

Plus: spying on Angela Merkel? Yeah, that really helps stop terrorism.

Um...Germany was one of the vendors of chemicals and equipment to Saddam, and it's not at all unlikely that they also supply Iraq.

So the solution is to bug the phone of the German Chancellor? Yeah, that's really a smart move. Plus, you left out the part about who else supplied arms to Saddam:

Everyone, it seems, took a slice of the Iraqi arms pie. The Soviet Union, France, China and Chile sold Baghdad much of its off-the-shelf weaponry. West Germany, France, Britain, the United States, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland and Brazil all sold the components, machines and tools -- much of it material with civilian as well as military application -- that are the building blocks of the modern Iraqi war machine.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/in ... 091790.htm
(bold mine)

No, the NSA answers to nobody, has done not much - if anything - to prevent terrorism, lies about it, and spies on as many people as it can simply because it can. And we should trust them? Riiight.

And you would know the NSA "has done not much...to prevent terrorism" how exactly.

See above. And read the news.

And I don't trust them at all, I just recognize that they serve a legitimate and necessary purpose.

Well, we have in common the first part of your sentence, but not the second.

[Mysturji]

I would like to see anti-terrorism agencies focus on their task. I have no doubt at all that Al Qaeda has been kicked in the teeth, and that the cause is information gained by various "spy" agencies. Not necessarily the NSA, of course. My best guess is that Al Qaeda has been inflitrated by agents from the USA, Britain, Israel, Pakistan and who knows how many other parties.

We have seen this result in terrorist plots thwarted. Bomb attacks defused. Al Qaeda people killed in drone attacks. And so on. Al Qaeda has not had a single major success since 9/11. Finagle only knows how many lives have been saved.

But this is from properly focussed intelligence gathering. Not from intercepting email messages from friends and allies.

Umm ... 7/7 ... Madrid ... Fiji ... Mumbai ...

[Mysturji]

... perhaps we should be more cautious on ... who we vote in to protect us? ...

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Audley Strange]

... perhaps we should be more cautious on ... who we vote in to protect us? ...

I have no idea what you're talking about.

We choose our leaders. Rather than rail against an agency doing the job given to it by it's regime perhaps we should be more cautious of which leaders we choose if they find it acceptable and we don't. More and more politics seems to be inevitably trans-national and we have seen for decades a political Caste emerge which does not represent the people but their own interests as a collective. We're complacent about it, cynical about it, but we still keep them in power.

[Seth]

I would like to see anti-terrorism agencies focus on their task. I have no doubt at all that Al Qaeda has been kicked in the teeth, and that the cause is information gained by various "spy" agencies. Not necessarily the NSA, of course. My best guess is that Al Qaeda has been inflitrated by agents from the USA, Britain, Israel, Pakistan and who knows how many other parties.

We have seen this result in terrorist plots thwarted. Bomb attacks defused. Al Qaeda people killed in drone attacks. And so on. Al Qaeda has not had a single major success since 9/11. Finagle only knows how many lives have been saved.

But this is from properly focussed intelligence gathering. Not from intercepting email messages from friends and allies.

And you know this because you work for the NSA and can authoritatively state that no intelligence information gleaned from large-scale digital scanning has been the least bit useful in uncovering or stopping a terrorist plot I presume?



I'd be more interested if you could demonstrate any example where the data review by the NSA has resulted in an ERRONEOUS alert or has resulted in national security action (or any other kind of law enforcement action) against an innocent person not actually involved in terrorism or espionage.

Now, if the NSA monitoring programs were producing gulags full of dissidents and malcontents who were being shoved into ovens because they politically disagree with the administration then I'd be far more skeptical of it's good intentions. So far I'm not aware of any Stalinesque use of the NSA's authority. Are you?

[Svartalf]

C'mon Audley... the panel of leaders we "choose from" is not itself made by us, and the choice is among the corrupt and incompetent, I don't call it a choice, for if I had a choice, all those submitted to my suffrage would be cleaning toilets in Burkina Faso.

[pErvinalia]

yep.