Thousands of pounds found in Spalding waterway

[mistermack]

Seth doesn't like a law, therefor it's corrupt.

Yeh yeh yeh yeh.

Well most of the land in the USA was acquired in corrupt fashion originally.

The law is still the law, even if Seth doesn't like it. No amount of hot air changes that.

[Jason]

private property is private, and when you buy it you gain title to everything on and under it

Ever been to the other side of the globe visiting your property there?

Being that the earth is a sphere, the "ad coelum" doctrine grants title to a wedge of property extending to the center of the earth and to the outer limits of the atmosphere. That has been recognized law for millennia.

Except the earth is not a sphere. It's a bit squished along the polar axis of rotation.

There is no international agreement on the vertical extent of sovereign airspace (the boundary between outer space—which is not subject to national jurisdiction—and national airspace), with suggestions ranging from about 30 km (19 mi) (the extent of the highest aircraft and balloons) to about 160 km (99 mi) (the lowest extent of short-term stable orbits). The Fédération Aéronautique Internationale has established the Kármán line, at an altitude of 100 km (62 mi), as the boundary between the Earth's atmosphere and the outer space, while the United States considers anyone who has flown above 50 miles (80 km) to be an astronaut; indeed descending space shuttles have flown closer than 80 km (50 mi) over other nations, such as Canada, without requesting permission first.[1] Nonetheless both the Kármán line and the U.S. definition are merely working benchmarks, without any real legal authority over matters of national sovereignty.

Also that ^.

[piscator]

private property is private, and when you buy it you gain title to everything on and under it

Ever been to the other side of the globe visiting your property there?

Being that the earth is a sphere, the "ad coelum" doctrine grants title to a wedge of property extending to the center of the earth and to the outer limits of the atmosphere. That has been recognized law for millennia.

You probably mean "ad inferos" (to hell) rather than "to heaven" airspace rights, which depending on jurisdiction and zoning and easements usually only extend upwards a couple hundred feet or so sans a variance. If you think passenger jets commit trespass when they fly over your parcel at 32,000' then go to court and get compensated for the damages.

As to subsurface and mineral rights, the fact of the matter is that very few private land sales include much of either in America these days. Laying aside the issue of US Mineral Reservations which predate certain states and which those territories gratefully ceded claims to for the privileges of statehood, and which the US held when it gave surface rights to some homesteaders and other entrymen under various Homestead Acts - most landowners who were able sold all or part of their mineral and other subsurface rights to private interests long ago. In order to reduce their perpetual liability, most of these private interests in turn sold or gave away these rights to other entities, who further fractured and sold these rights, and so on, and so on... Then, most of these corporations and other entities went under in one way or another over time and through depressions and recessions, and their assets were sold to hosts of other creditors and claimants. (This fracturing and selling of subsurface rights is still a common way for mining and oil companies to limit their exposure to future liability - Canadian entity Northern Dynasty, for example, has plans to sell the Pebble prospect's subsurface and other rights to no less than 2000 different entities scattered all over the world in its initial offering of liabilities after it poisons vast areas of pristine Alaskan wilderness and kills off thousands of salmon runs in its conscienceless and liability-free quest for gold and other shiny metals.)
The upshot is that the typical US landowner has the mineral and other subsurface rights to "his property" owned by hundreds if not thousands of others, living and dead, who are likely not in existence, much less contactable much less willing or able to sell any of it back for any amount of "Good and valuable consideration".
So any Libertarian who doesn't have mineral rights to his land should be happy - This is "The Free Market" in action.


So to make a sweeping generalization that air and mineral and other subsurface rights are included in the 6 traditional covenants of a typical Warranty Deed will render one wrong over 99.9% of the time in America. That's at least 4 sigma of divergence with reality, which I have to admit is pretty good for you. You must have taken your meds recently.

[JimC]

Shit, we've gone a fuck of a long way from Spalding...

[piscator]

Shit, we've gone a fuck of a long way from Spalding...

But we dodged a bullet in the Kennedy thread, so it's nothing to lose your head over.

[Seth]

private property is private, and when you buy it you gain title to everything on and under it

Ever been to the other side of the globe visiting your property there?

Being that the earth is a sphere, the "ad coelum" doctrine grants title to a wedge of property extending to the center of the earth and to the outer limits of the atmosphere. That has been recognized law for millennia.

You probably mean "ad inferos" (to hell) rather than "to heaven" airspace rights, which depending on jurisdiction and zoning and easements usually only extend upwards a couple hundred feet or so sans a variance. If you think passenger jets commit trespass when they fly over your parcel at 32,000' then go to court and get compensated for the damages.

No, I mean the "ad coelum" doctrine, stated completely as "Cuius est solum eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos", which translated means, "whoever owns the soil, it is theirs all the way up to Heaven and down to Hell."

I'm really going to enjoy thrashing you with respect to airspace rights because they happen to be a favorite subject of mine that I've been studying in detail for more than 30 years.

I am most familiar with Colorado airspace law, but the same principles apply most places in the US to one degree or another.

Colorado is one of the few states that expressly vests the ownership of airspace above the surface in the owner of the surface beneath. Colorado amends that right with a single exception stated as "except for the right of the flight of aircraft." Thus Colorado law recognizes unlimited ownership of space above the surface bounded by a "plane" extending from the surface into space that follows the property boundary. However, in practical effect the surface owner only has the right to exclude (that being one of the essential rights in the bundle of rights associated with real property) within that airspace which he can lawfully make use of under the local zoning laws. The federal government claims control over "navigable airspace" which is that airspace lying above private property that is suitable for aircraft navigation that varies in height from place to place, but generally, in non-approach/departure paths near airports begins a minimum of 500 feet above the surface.

But the fee title to the airspace from the surface to the heavens still resides with the owner of the surface, subject to an easement for the flight of aircraft only. The government does not own navigable airspace above private property, it merely manages and administers it under a claimed easement.

Thus, the individual who wishes to build a thousand-foot tall antenna structure has a vested property right to do so subject to regulation by local zoning authorities and subject to aviation safety considerations of the FAA. In other words, he does not have to buy anything from the federal government or the state in order to make use of that airspace, he merely needs to comply with restrictions and regulations put in place by the government in that exercise of his rights.

This ownership of space is a necessary component to everyday life and property rights because it gives the owner the right to exclude others from that airspace, which is a fundamental property right that when removed by government, automatically creates a "taking" for which just compensation is due. Aircraft are a special case operating under an implied easement in favor of the government, but no other aerial encroachments burden the fee title of the surface unless deliberately severed.

The ownership of space is what makes owning a condominium unit possible. The buyer is not buying the structure of the multi-family building, he is actually buying an "estate in space" that is defined by the paint on the interior walls of the unit. In Colorado, and other states, the rights that pertain to the surface estate also apply to estates in space by specific legislative directive, and an "estate in space" is "real property" to exactly the same extent that the surface is, and must be treated that way by the law.

But one does not have to create an estate in space to possess real property rights over the "superadjacent" airspace above one's land. That exists as a part of the package of rights you acquire when you buy the surface, and it exists until it is officially severed and sold to someone else.

The most important aspect of the ownership of space is, as I said, the right to exclude others. Trespass to airspace is exactly the same as trespass to the surface and is treated the same way in the law. Thus, my neighbor cannot build an archway over my backyard from his property on one side to his property on the other. He cannot build an overhanging structure that intrudes on my airspace, which is defined in Colorado law as "the close" (People v. Emmert, 566 P.2d 1089, 1090 (1977)) consisting of the invisible plane extending upward from the surface property boundary. Even throwing or shooting objects or projectiles into or through that airspace without permission is a criminal and civil violation. Therefore if you own property on both sides of mine, and my property lies at the bottom of a valley and you want to engage in target practice from your porch to a hillside on the other side you cannot "trespass" with your bullets through my airspace.

To sum up, the "ad coelum" doctrine still applies everywhere in the US, and most other places too, and the fee title in the airspace above the surface is vested in the owner of the surface beneath, subject to structure height regulations and an easement on behalf of the people for the overflight of aircraft. Such right may be, and often are severed and transferred, like the airspace above Grand Central Station in New York City. The surface and subsurface estates belong to the City of New York, while the airspace in which the overlying skyscraper is built is privately owned.

As to subsurface and mineral rights, the fact of the matter is that very few private land sales include much of either in America these days.

Depends on where you are. I owned the fee title to all the mineral rights under my ranch. My parents would not have purchased it without obtaining the mineral rights because they understood the dangers of having a split estate where the mineral rights are separately owned.

Laying aside the issue of US Mineral Reservations which predate certain states and which those territories gratefully ceded claims to for the privileges of statehood,

Gratefully my ass. They did so only because they were coerced into doing so by the Congress under threat of refusing to admit the state to the Union, which violated the Equal Footing Doctrine.

and which the US held when it gave surface rights to some homesteaders and other entrymen under various Homestead Acts - most landowners who were able sold all or part of their mineral and other subsurface rights to private interests long ago. In order to reduce their perpetual liability, most of these private interests in turn sold or gave away these rights to other entities, who further fractured and sold these rights, and so on, and so on... Then, most of these corporations and other entities went under in one way or another over time and through depressions and recessions, and their assets were sold to hosts of other creditors and claimants. (This fracturing and selling of subsurface rights is still a common way for mining and oil companies to limit their exposure to future liability - Canadian entity Northern Dynasty, for example, has plans to sell the Pebble prospect's subsurface and other rights to no less than 2000 different entities scattered all over the world in its initial offering of liabilities after it poisons vast areas of pristine Alaskan wilderness and kills off thousands of salmon runs in its conscienceless and liability-free quest for gold and other shiny metals.)
The upshot is that the typical US landowner has the mineral and other subsurface rights to "his property" owned by hundreds if not thousands of others, living and dead, who are likely not in existence, much less contactable much less willing or able to sell any of it back for any amount of "Good and valuable consideration".

That is true in many places, but not in others. But it's irrelevant because the issue here is whether it was just and lawful for the Congress to sever the mineral rights within the boundaries of a new state, thereby depriving the state of the benefits of those rights, which was not done to the original 13 states and therefore, according to the Equal Footing Doctrine, should not have been done to the new states. Individuals have every right to sell their mineral estates in any way they choose. That's rather the point of my objection. People in Pennsylvania who owned mineral rights and found oil profited as they justly should have, while people in Colorado in places like the Divide Creek valley are subjected to the negative aspects of gas drilling including odors, noise and pollution but they do not enjoy any of the benefits because the mineral rights were unconstitutionally seized by the Congress and then leased to private companies, resulting in family homes having gas wells drilled less than a hundred feet from their front doors.

So any Libertarian who doesn't have mineral rights to his land should be happy - This is "The Free Market" in action.

Only if it was a free market transaction, which is not the case with federal reservations of mineral rights in the west.

So to make a sweeping generalization that air and mineral and other subsurface rights are included in the 6 traditional covenants of a typical Warranty Deed will render one wrong over 99.9% of the time in America.

I challenge your ratio and expect you to prove it. I owned the mineral rights under my property and so do many other people. Many don't. The difference is whether those rights were severed voluntarily by one of the lawful owners, thus depriving all subsequent owners of that value, which is reflected in the purchase price at each transaction, or whether those rights were stolen by the Congress from the states themselves, thus depriving the states of control and profit from the sale of land to homesteaders and others.

Once again, the issue is not the severability of those property rights, it's whether Congress had lawful constitutional authority to do so to the detriment of the new states. I maintain (along with many others including legal scholars) that Congress did not have that authority. This opinion is strongly supported by the coercive demand that the new states positively disclaim all right or title to the unappropriated lands in those states as a condition of statehood. As I said before, if Congress actually had the authority to sever such rights at it's whim and caprice upon the formation and admission of a new state it would not need such language, and the inclusion of that language proves that Congress knew it did NOT have that authority, but chose to discriminate against the new states by violating the Equal Footing Doctrine in a cupidinous quest to secure perpetual income for the federal government.

That's at least 4 sigma of divergence with reality, which I have to admit is pretty good for you. You must have taken your meds recently.

Go fuck yourself you arrogant asshole.

[FBM]

Seth, this is a warning that the above post contains a personal attack on another member. Please don't invite a suspension. Thanks.

[Seth]

Seth, this is a warning that the above post contains a personal attack on another member. Please don't invite a suspension. Thanks.

Where's Piscator's warning for personally attacking me, which fomented my necessary reply?

Same place as all the other non-warnings you mods refuse to give out when someone personally attacks me I suspect.

So, go fuck yourself.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Seth, this is a warning that the above post contains a personal attack on another member. Please don't invite a suspension. Thanks.

Where's Piscator's warning for personally attacking me, which fomented my necessary reply?

Same place as all the other non-warnings you mods refuse to give out when someone personally attacks me I suspect.

So, go fuck yourself.

Did you report it? No. Are the staff supposed to read every post in every thread with a fine-toothed comb and check for personal attacks? No.
Did anything he said match the level of personal attack in your post? No.

If you would like the staff to handle attacks on you, report them. Kindly do not escalate the situation. As you see, all that will do is result in sanctions against YOU! It's not rocket surgery.

[macdoc]

poor wounded libby appealing to authority...thought they were made of sterner stuff

[Seth]

Seth, this is a warning that the above post contains a personal attack on another member. Please don't invite a suspension. Thanks.

Where's Piscator's warning for personally attacking me, which fomented my necessary reply?

Same place as all the other non-warnings you mods refuse to give out when someone personally attacks me I suspect.

So, go fuck yourself.

Did you report it? No. Are the staff supposed to read every post in every thread with a fine-toothed comb and check for personal attacks? No.

You read the fucking post I replied to because I quoted it, so fuck off with your evasive crap.

Did anything he said match the level of personal attack in your post? No.

And attack parity is required by what provision of the FUA pray tell?

If you would like the staff to handle attacks on you, report them. Kindly do not escalate the situation. As you see, all that will do is result in sanctions against YOU! It's not rocket surgery.

Horseshit. I've reported many clear personal attacks and almost all of them have been blithely dismissed without action. That's exactly why I went all overt on his sorry ass, because I knew none of the Mods would take my complaint seriously or give it the weight it's due based on how other infractions are enforced. This ain't my first rodeo Sparky. I know exactly how you "moderators" operate and I'm fed up with it.

So again, go fuck yourself.

[Seth]

poor wounded libby appealing to authority...thought they were made of sterner stuff

Nah, it's just fun poking sticks at the monkeys behind the bars and watching them shriek in impotent fury.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

poor wounded libby appealing to authority...thought they were made of sterner stuff

Nah, it's just fun poking sticks at the monkeys behind the bars and watching them shriek in impotent fury.

Oh noes!!1!! I haz teh impotentzes!!11

[FBM]

Seth, this is a warning that the above post contains a personal attack on another member. Please don't invite a suspension. Thanks.

Where's Piscator's warning for personally attacking me, which fomented my necessary reply?

Same place as all the other non-warnings you mods refuse to give out when someone personally attacks me I suspect.

So, go fuck yourself.

http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 4#p1522934

[Seth]

Seth, this is a warning that the above post contains a personal attack on another member. Please don't invite a suspension. Thanks.

Where's Piscator's warning for personally attacking me, which fomented my necessary reply?

Same place as all the other non-warnings you mods refuse to give out when someone personally attacks me I suspect.

So, go fuck yourself.

http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 4#p1522934

Different insult, but thanks anyway.