The Libertarian "State"

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Re: The Libertarian "State"

Post by piscator » Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:39 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Blind groper wrote:Question : why is there no libertarian state anywhere in the world today?

Answer : because it does not bloody work!

It is like the reason communism does not work. To work, it requires humans to be more than they are. It requires ethical behaviour, and people are not like that.
Not really true. Many of the United States were pretty darn close to libertarian states until the early 20th century.

The reason is more that egalitarian democracy encourages people to vote themselves other peoples' money, thus biasing democracies towards socialism.

No, people bled to change the world into something better than effective Libertarianism. We evolved.

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Re: The Libertarian "State"

Post by MrJonno » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:11 pm

Question : why is there no libertarian state anywhere in the world today?
Because individuals don't form states
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Re: "First Movers"

Post by Seth » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:13 pm

piscator wrote:
Seth wrote: Libertarianism does not prohibit the existence of "public" or common property, it merely forbids the majority from taking what is owned by the individual by initiating force or fraud. The concept of eminent domain does not exist in Libertarianism, but the principle of free-market negotiation most certainly does. Eminent domain as a concept holds that all land is held by individuals subject to the overarching right of the King (or the government) to use that land for its own purposes. In US law, eminent domain exists but is strictly limited by the Constitution as to how and when it may be exercised. There are two conditions stated in the Constitution itself: The taking of the property must be for "public use," and the owner of the property must receive "just compensation."
How did the land of the United States become private property?
How did the millions of square miles of, say, the Louisiana Purchase become mostly private property?


Hint: That land was overwhelmingly given to the first comers ("Entrymen") by the US government. Free of charge.
Yes, much land was homesteaded west of the Mississippi. Much of the land east of the Mississippi was bought from the Indians both before and after the Revolution...sometimes several times from several different tribes, which led to many disputes from both sides. It was hardly "free" though. There was no monetary expense, but the laws of homesteading required a significant input of labor and improvement before title passed.

And yes, some land was stolen.

Some was the result of conquest of warring Indian tribes.

And other land was acquired by treaty with the Indians.

The purpose of homestead laws was to stimulate commerce by granting land patents to settlers. Other land was sold by the government to fund government operations. This is why the Congress created the "split estate" in which it grants the surface rights to an individual but retains the subsurface mineral rights to the government.

I don't agree with split estates, which should never have happened. But granting land patents for homesteaders is only marginally different from the settlers themselves going forth and occupying the land by acquiring it from those who laid claim to it, if anyone chose to do so.
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Re: The Libertarian "State"

Post by Jason » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:16 pm

Blind groper wrote:Question : why is there no libertarian state anywhere in the world today?

Answer : because it does not bloody work!

It is like the reason communism does not work. To work, it requires humans to be more than they are. It requires ethical behaviour, and people are not like that.
Power corrupts. People in power are less than 'people'. They are inevitably more 'corrupt'. Inert the e-quasar.

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Re: The Libertarian "State"

Post by Seth » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:27 pm

Făkünamę wrote:
Blind groper wrote:Question : why is there no libertarian state anywhere in the world today?

Answer : because it does not bloody work!

It is like the reason communism does not work. To work, it requires humans to be more than they are. It requires ethical behaviour, and people are not like that.
Power corrupts. People in power are less than 'people'. They are inevitably more 'corrupt'. Inert the e-quasar.
Correct. The important distinction between Marxism and Libertarianism is that Marxism always trends towards more corruption and authoritarianism perforce, while Libertarianism always tends towards less corruption and authoritarianism.

Therefore, of the two, Libertarianism is always the better direction. While it is true that theoretical perfect Libertarianism requires moral social behavior that does not today exist (ie: acceptance of personal responsibility and consequences) in main, the more towards Libertarianism society trends the faster it will expand as people see the benefits.

Conversely, the closer society trends towards Marxism the worse things become. Viz: Venezuela today, where the State Socialist regime just expropriated an entire chain of department stores and allowed people to pillage them on the excuse that the company was "gouging" consumers. While this something-for-nothingism effectively panders to the dependent class, the ultimate result will inevitably be the impoverishment of the entire nation because nobody anywhere will take the risk to invest in private enterprise in Venezuela out of the perfectly reasonable fear that their entire investment will simply be taken by the Marxists in charge. That's exactly what happened in Cuba.

As I've said so many times before, Marxism is the ideology of equality of misery.
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Re: "First Movers"

Post by piscator » Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:16 pm

Seth wrote:
piscator wrote:
Seth wrote: Libertarianism does not prohibit the existence of "public" or common property, it merely forbids the majority from taking what is owned by the individual by initiating force or fraud. The concept of eminent domain does not exist in Libertarianism, but the principle of free-market negotiation most certainly does. Eminent domain as a concept holds that all land is held by individuals subject to the overarching right of the King (or the government) to use that land for its own purposes. In US law, eminent domain exists but is strictly limited by the Constitution as to how and when it may be exercised. There are two conditions stated in the Constitution itself: The taking of the property must be for "public use," and the owner of the property must receive "just compensation."
How did the land of the United States become private property?
How did the millions of square miles of, say, the Louisiana Purchase become mostly private property?


Hint: That land was overwhelmingly given to the first comers ("Entrymen") by the US government. Free of charge.
Yes, much land was homesteaded west of the Mississippi. Much of the land east of the Mississippi was bought from the Indians both before and after the Revolution...sometimes several times from several different tribes, which led to many disputes from both sides. It was hardly "free" though. There was no monetary expense, but the laws of homesteading required a significant input of labor and improvement before title passed.

...

The purpose of homestead laws was to stimulate commerce by granting land patents to settlers. Other land was sold by the government to fund government operations. This is why the Congress created the "split estate" in which it grants the surface rights to an individual but retains the subsurface mineral rights to the government. I don't agree with split estates, which should never have happened.

1. One of the first purposes of the original acts pertaining to the disposal of the Public Domain was to pay off Revolutionary War debts. And the original purpose of homestead laws in the US was to reward soldiers of the Revolutionary War.

2. As I've explained in another thread, "Land ownership" is merely a set of rights granted by some sort of conveyance and guaranteed by a government.
"Subsurface rights" are just as severable and fungible as any other of the rights bundled as a land title. If it wasn't that way since before Rome, someone would have invented it in the interim.

So you're not really correct on either score.





But granting land patents for homesteaders is only marginally different from the settlers themselves going forth and occupying the land by acquiring it from those who laid claim to it, if anyone chose to do so.
It's more than marginally different, as a government backs the rights known as "Land Title". Bob could go out and claim some patch of land for his exclusive use, but he'll have a tough time holding his claim against others or handling disputes in the absence of the force represented by a government. Governments are all the difference. Whatayougonna do?

Your base argument against government use of land depends upon a government powerful enough to enforce land laws. Congratulations on such a fine logical regression. I guess when you get to be God, you'll fix that. :roll:

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Re: The Libertarian "State"

Post by Jason » Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:26 pm

'Libertarianism' does not work. Full stop.

Why? Because it creates a chaotic pool of individualism that 'clever' people will inevitably learn to manipulate. Full stop.

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Re: The Libertarian "State"

Post by Blind groper » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:02 pm

Warren suggested that some of the early parts of the USA were largely libertarian. The key word is 'were'. Past tense. Libertarianism as a system never lasts. It is not a practical means of running a society.

Seth claims Marxism is a recipe for misery. Sure, I agree. The thing is that both libertarianism and Marxism cannot work in the long run. They fail every time.

Compromise is needed. Of course, where the balance point is drawn is cause for a century of argument. But at least a viable system will be put in place, and adjusting the balance point will not cause serious human misery.

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Re: The Libertarian "State"

Post by Jason » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:09 pm

A centurion in a femtosecond.

Web2.0 was a bust. 'Clever' people always...

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Re: The Libertarian "State"

Post by JimC » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:25 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Blind groper wrote:Question : why is there no libertarian state anywhere in the world today?

Answer : because it does not bloody work!

It is like the reason communism does not work. To work, it requires humans to be more than they are. It requires ethical behaviour, and people are not like that.
Not really true. Many of the United States were pretty darn close to libertarian states until the early 20th century.

The reason is more that egalitarian democracy encourages people to vote themselves other peoples' money, thus biasing democracies towards socialism.
No, it encourages workers to vote for parties which don't automatically kowtow to the power of established wealth and privilege...
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Re: The Libertarian "State"

Post by Clinton Huxley » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Libertarianism may work below a certain, very low, population density. Beyond that, recipe for total bloody chaos.
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Re: The Libertarian "State"

Post by Jason » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:40 pm

A system that automatically encourages workers to vote for parties who do not automatically kowtow to the system.. That's not 'Libertarianism'.

Libertarianism does not work as a distributed system either as there is a necessary cohesion. It only 'works' in a completely isolated small community. That's enough for me to dismiss it. If you want to argue about how many people can dance on the pinhead of 'Libertarianism', go ahead. It's a waste of time. It is an impracticable system unless you're a true solipsist. ;-)

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Re: The Libertarian "State"

Post by subversive science » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:54 am

Clinton Huxley wrote:Libertarianism may work below a certain, very low, population density. Beyond that, recipe for total bloody chaos.
I think Marxism and pure Socialsim are similar in this aspect. I suspect the homogeneity of a society is a factor also.

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Re: The Libertarian "State"

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:10 am

I think it's important not to lump "socialism" in with "Marxism". Marxism is a toxic elitist ideology (a lot like libertarianism), but socialism isn't encumbered with all the psuedoscientific "theoretical" historiography crap.
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Re: The Libertarian "State"

Post by subversive science » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:16 am

I was only suggesting that a pure Socialist society may not be sustainable for large, dense populations.

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