Anti-tribalism the key to civilised behaviour

[Blind groper]

Many years ago I made my first visit to Papua New Guinea (PNG). Quite an eye opener.

The people of PNG have (rightly or wrongly) been regarded as among the most primitive in the world. Until very recently, they used stone tools, and wrapped grass around their ass for clothing. However, what struck me was their primitive behaviour.

In PNG they have a system they call wantok (pidgin for one talk - meaning sharing a language). A tribe, or wantok, would all speak the same language, which would be different to the next tribe. Within the wantok, people were expected to be kind and considerate. However, to people outside the wantok, anything went. You could rob, rape, assault or even kill a person outside your wantok, and it was not immoral, because such people were not considered human. (It was, of course, illegal, and could put you in prison.)

It struck me then, and since, that this is not unique. In fact, it is a widespread human trait. We have this tendency to regard our "in-group" as being more human than those not a part of the in-group. Our in-group is a modern tribe, and they are human to us, while others are, if not unhuman, at least a bit less deserving of our attention, kindness, and consideration. The extreme case in our society is gangs, who do exactly what the PNG people do - rob, rape, assault and murder those not part of the gang (wantok).

We do see, though, a change in more developed nations, where much more compassion and kindness is shown to non in-group people. It struck me that this could be used as a measure of degree of social civilisation. Those who were less tied to the tribal value are more civilised.

By this standard, people like Nelson Mandela, Mother Theresa, the Dalae Lama, Albert Schweizer etc are the most civilised. They have escaped the tribal mores and now treat everyone as worthy of kindness.

Degree of civlisation becomes inversely proportional to the strength of the wantok syndrome.

There are certain people on this forum wo express total lack of concern for those not part of their family/friends/colleagues in-group. Those forum members, by my definition, line up with the people in PNG who wear ass grass, as primitives.

[klr]

You won't get any dissent from me on tribal attittudes* (on any scale, small or large), being "uncivilised", and something we should work to change. But I'd be shocked if it were not in evidence here or anywhere else. If you hang around any group of people for long enough, you'll see it, and in spades. No-one is perfect, and these are indeed very deep-seated human tendencies.

*Regarding things that actually matter. I don't count the likes of sporting tribalism as long as it has no wider impact.

TBH, your OP is just a not-very-thinly veiled attack on certain people here, which is a pity, because it's a debate well worth having.

[JimC]

You have defined your very own "out-group", and find them to be worthy of scorn and contempt, so I guess you are also being tribal.

However, there is clearly some truth in what you say in general, but the impulse to tribal thinking is merely one dimension of a very complex human nature.

And I suspect it can't be eliminated, although it can be usefully sublimated to identifying with sporting clubs, for example...

[klr]

You have defined your very own "out-group", and find them to be worthy of scorn and contempt, so I guess you are also being tribal.

However, there is clearly some truth in what you say in general, but the impulse to tribal thinking is merely one dimension of a very complex human nature.

And I suspect it can't be eliminated, although it can be usefully sublimated to identifying with sporting clubs, for example...

I didn't want to be the one to make that comment.

And sports are indeed a good outlet for venting tribal feelings.

[JimC]

You have defined your very own "out-group", and find them to be worthy of scorn and contempt, so I guess you are also being tribal.

However, there is clearly some truth in what you say in general, but the impulse to tribal thinking is merely one dimension of a very complex human nature.

And I suspect it can't be eliminated, although it can be usefully sublimated to identifying with sporting clubs, for example...

I didn't want to be the one to make that comment.

And sports are indeed a good outlet for venting tribal feelings.

Although the behaviour of certain English soccer fans heads back in the Wontok direction at times...

[Jason]

Why is it important what one certain English soccer fan does? Because it so very apparently is.

Do you have an answer?

[JimC]

Why is it important what one certain English soccer fan does? Because it so very apparently is.

Do you have an answer?

Just a jokey reference to English soccer hooligans and their propensity for having fights with the members of other tribes clubs...

[klr]

Why is it important what one certain English soccer fan does? Because it so very apparently is.

Do you have an answer?

Just a jokey reference to English soccer hooligans and their propensity for having fights with the members of other tribes clubs...

Actually, English fans are far from the worst these days, although that's partly a function of how effective the policing is. There are plenty of other places where football matches are used to express truly ugly nationalism. In those cases, the sport is not the source of the tribalism, rather a convenient conduit for expressing it.

[JimC]

Why is it important what one certain English soccer fan does? Because it so very apparently is.

Do you have an answer?

Just a jokey reference to English soccer hooligans and their propensity for having fights with the members of other tribes clubs...

Actually, English fans are far from the worst these days, although that's partly a function of how effective the policing is. There are plenty of other places where football matches are used to express truly ugly nationalism. In those cases, the sport is not the source of the tribalism, rather a convenient conduit for expressing it.

Good point...

It's funny, there tends to be relatively little violence amongst fans at Aussie rules games, even though lots of alcohol is involved, plus tribal identification with the club you support.

I put it down to there being plenty of satisfying on-field violence to watch...

[Blind groper]

Interesting approach.
To be honest, I had not thought of sporting affiliations as tribal, but you are right.

What do you think of the idea that degree of civilisation is inversely proportional to tribalism?

[JimC]

Interesting approach.
To be honest, I had not thought of sporting affiliations as tribal, but you are right.

What do you think of the idea that degree of civilisation is inversely proportional to tribalism?

I think that it has some merit, but cannot be applied with too broad a brush. For a start, "tribalism" has more dimensions than simply aggressive behaviour to outsiders, although it will often be associated with it. One could list some positive aspects; people in urban environments often feel isolated and alone, and there are movements to encourage local social groups to counter this, in effect to remedy a human deficit of the lack of intense human contact within a tribe. The whole "it takes a village to rear a child" idea is a counter-balance to issues created by urban loneliness and the nuclear family.

The "out-group antagonism" reflex that seems to come with tribalism is fairly plastic in how it is applied - over the centuries, rulers have manipulated such sentiments to motivate wars, to define any alien group as "the enemy" and to prop up their own control of societies. Ideally, identifying "human race" as one's tribe (other than minor, local customs & sporting groups) would be a good thing, and could be argued to be one of the steps to a higher level of civilisation.

[cronus]

No tribes is about as dumb as no scientists. That'd never fly. Ultimately humans are tribalism. Life ain't fair and ain't kind. A few get lucky but you are putting them in a tribe already - of the lucky ones who got out. In rugged socio-economic terrain which the future always is you need constant experiment with tribal structures....anything goes and history isn't a straight line.

[laklak]

Tribalism is as natural as sunlight, without it we'd never have survived this long. You've as much chance getting rid of tribalism as you would wanking. BG, your out group is a pretty big one - anyone who owns a gun, almost all Americans, anyone who has a conservative or libertarian outlook, pretty much everyone except Western democratic socialists and the odd communist dinosaur. You've got far more people on your shit list than I do, you're more tribal than I am. Does this make me a more civilized human being than you, or can that adjective only be applied to people who share your political philosophy?

[Blind groper]

Laklak

I would deny that.
My out group is not based on politics or national identity. It is more based on general nastiness. People who are cruel, sadistic, dishonest, liars etc form my out group. Admittedly, that is quite a large out group.

I do not mind people disagreeing with me, as long as their reasons are intelligent and well thought out. I am happy with people of a wide political spectrum, as long as they are prepared to treat others well. Ditto nationalities. As I said before, I consider Americans as individuals to be roughly two thirds good people.

You guys are probably correct in suggesting tribalism to be a normal part of human existence. However, I see no reason why a species as flexible as Homo sapiens should not be able to modify this to permit kindness to be practised with the out group.

[cronus]

Stalins shrink (now deceased)