Socialized medicine's inevitable death panels

[Seth]

And in the U.S. the Insurance Companies are indeed making the decision, albeit indirectly, by restricting payouts and regulating treatment, That's how insurance companies make money.

Yup, but you're not REQUIRED to pay an insurance company a dime if you don't want to...until now...in the US. If you CHOOSE to pay for health care insurance, as opposed to paying for actual health care directly from an actual provider as I do, then you are ACCEPTING the contract that the insurance company offers, so it's still a voluntary contract that you can get out of any time you want. If you don't like the contract, you can either negotiate it or find another company or go back to paying for actual medical services from the actual provider. But with socialized medicine you are COMPELLED to pay for coverage even if you don't want it, don't need it, and never use it. And if you choose NOT to use socialized medicine that you are COMPELLED to pay for, then you have to pay TWICE for actual medical care, once to the State so it can provide medical services to SOMEONE ELSE, and once for your own actual medical care.

Moreover, once the system is implemented there is quite literally no limit on how much the State can raise taxes to pay for the system other than the threat of regime change, so the individual cannot opt out of paying for other people's medical care and choose to pay only for his own, in cash, paid directly to the doctor.

That's just wrong. It's enslaving everyone to the service of people who can't afford insurance. That's involuntary servitude in every respect identical to chaining the individual to a plow behind a mule and plying the bullwhip till he digs the required number of furrows.

Someone else's health problems are THEIR problem, not mine. I have enough on my plate taking care of myself, and I have no time to be enslaved to the service of others who demand my labor and property as a right. If they need help, they can damned well ASK me politely for it, and if I deem them worthy of my charity, I'll help them. Otherwise I disclaim financial responsibility for their poor health, poor life decisions, or poor luck. I don't demand that they pay my bills, so I'm not disposed to pay theirs.

[MrJonno]

If you want to live a life without responsibility to others time to find a desert island

In the meanwhile if you choose to exist in a society you obey its rules whether its paying taxes, buying insurance or painting your hair green with pink ribbons in it. Doing things you don't want to because of rules you don't like isn't slavery its called being a civilized human being. Slavery is when you don't have the option to leave your master which you clearly do. Until then play by the rules or depart

[Tero]

Seth, are you ready for that "do not apply care" bracelet on your wrist? Otherwise the rest of us will be paying when they haul unconscious Seth to the emergency room.

[JimC]

Seth, are you ready for that "do not apply care" bracelet on your wrist? Otherwise the rest of us will be paying when they haul unconscious Seth to the emergency room.

Surely there's a compromise bracelet, that says "Do a quick patch-up job, then boot me out"

[piscator]

Someone else's health problems are THEIR problem, not mine.

Not if you have insurance.
If you have insurance, you pay for every other policyholder's problems. Your rates are set by the stats of the policyholders and acceptable profit margins, and your money goes to pay for their health problems.
If that's too Marxist or Early Christian Collectivist for you, go without insurance and pay for all of it yourself. That way you enjoy the approbations of your own magnificent work ethic, and you know you're not paying for the little pussyassed health problems of undeserving bellyaching deadbeats and other despicable social parasites. Amirite?

[Seth]

If you want to live a life without responsibility to others time to find a desert island

In the meanwhile if you choose to exist in a society you obey its rules whether its paying taxes, buying insurance or painting your hair green with pink ribbons in it. Doing things you don't want to because of rules you don't like isn't slavery its called being a civilized human being. Slavery is when you don't have the option to leave your master which you clearly do. Until then play by the rules or depart

That's a fallacious appeal to common practice. You've intimated before that Hitler's extermination of the Jews was morally acceptable because it was "the law" at the time. No, I'm not quoting you, I'm saying that you have this authoritarian streak in your arguments that hold that the government can do no wrong and every social custom is acceptable because it's social custom. That's a particularly weak form of argumentation I'm afraid.

Just because the collective can enforce it's tyranny doesn't make doing so moral, ethical, rational, logical or acceptable.

And you fail, through this weaseling fallacy, to even try to explain why exactly I am responsible for your health. What relationship is there between us that would obligate me to pay for the consequences of your lifestyle and genetics? Why is your health more important than my health?

[Seth]

Seth, are you ready for that "do not apply care" bracelet on your wrist? Otherwise the rest of us will be paying when they haul unconscious Seth to the emergency room.

No, I'll get treated without my consent and they will send me the bill, which I will pay. Even if I put a DNR bracelet on, or have it tattooed on my chest, the law says that emergency personnel can simply ignore that directive and give aid in an emergency. It's a bit different if one is dying from some long-term illness, in which case a custodian with a DNR form can reject care, but in any emergency the legal presumption is that the individual would ask for help if he could, so they go ahead and provide that help without the request.

That's why I put money away my whole life in a medical emergency account rather than wasting it on paying insurance premiums.

So I don't need Obamacare, I don't want it and I won't use it. But according to the law I still have to pay for it, even though I will never use it. Worse, I used to be able to get a limited catastrophic care policy that kicked in after the first 50k or so that was really cheap, but it's now against the law to offer such a policy. Any health care policy has to offer ALL of the mandated services Obamacare calls for, so I can't pick and choose which services I want the insurance company to pay for in order to reduce my premiums. For example, if I get terminal cancer, I don't want to be treated for it, I'll just kill myself instead of suffering. But under Obamacare I am forced to pay for cancer care anyway.

Sorry, not playing that game. And I'm sure as hell not paying for YOUR cancer care. Not my problem.

[JimC]

If you want to live a life without responsibility to others time to find a desert island

In the meanwhile if you choose to exist in a society you obey its rules whether its paying taxes, buying insurance or painting your hair green with pink ribbons in it. Doing things you don't want to because of rules you don't like isn't slavery its called being a civilized human being. Slavery is when you don't have the option to leave your master which you clearly do. Until then play by the rules or depart

That's a fallacious appeal to common practice. You've intimated before that Hitler's extermination of the Jews was morally acceptable because it was "the law" at the time. No, I'm not quoting you, I'm saying that you have this authoritarian streak in your arguments that hold that the government can do no wrong and every social custom is acceptable because it's social custom. That's a particularly weak form of argumentation I'm afraid.

Just because the collective can enforce it's tyranny doesn't make doing so moral, ethical, rational, logical or acceptable.

And you fail, through this weaseling fallacy, to even try to explain why exactly I am responsible for your health. What relationship is there between us that would obligate me to pay for the consequences of your lifestyle and genetics? Why is your health more important than my health?

I doubt very much you will end up paying for an Englishman's medical expenses...

(and I rather suspect that MrJonno's lifestyle is ascetic and absurdly healthy, and that he will live to 103, never entering a hospital, and dying in his own bed after excessive exertions with a widow half his age... Am I right, MJonno?)

[Seth]

Someone else's health problems are THEIR problem, not mine.

Not if you have insurance.
If you have insurance, you pay for every other policyholder's problems. Your rates are set by the stats of the policyholders and acceptable profit margins, and your money goes to pay for their health problems.

Absolutely correct. The point is, however, that prior to Obamacare I got to choose whether or not to have insurance, and I got to choose the company and the policy and the coverage I wanted. I could investigate the risk pool to see whether it was full of old sick people or young healthy ones and decide who to do business with, if anybody, based on what I wanted out of health care insurance, or no health care insurance. It was all voluntary and when I contracted with a company I accepted the risks of the risk pool as part of that contract and I could dump the policy any time I wanted.

But now I no longer have that choice. I am being FORCED to buy insurance from a company that can only offer an "approved" policy, which means I must pay for coverage for things I neither need nor want, like female plumbing problems or cancer treatment.

If that's too Marxist or Early Christian Collectivist for you, go without insurance and pay for all of it yourself.

I've been doing exactly that since 1995, when I figured out the scam.

That way you enjoy the approbations of your own magnificent work ethic, and you know you're not paying for the little pussyassed health problems of undeserving bellyaching deadbeats and other despicable social parasites. Amirite?

Problem is that Obamacare doesn't give me that option anymore. I have to buy a policy whether I want one or not, and whether I use it or not. Well, that's what they want me to do, but I ain't doing it, no way, no how.

[Seth]

If you want to live a life without responsibility to others time to find a desert island

In the meanwhile if you choose to exist in a society you obey its rules whether its paying taxes, buying insurance or painting your hair green with pink ribbons in it. Doing things you don't want to because of rules you don't like isn't slavery its called being a civilized human being. Slavery is when you don't have the option to leave your master which you clearly do. Until then play by the rules or depart

That's a fallacious appeal to common practice. You've intimated before that Hitler's extermination of the Jews was morally acceptable because it was "the law" at the time. No, I'm not quoting you, I'm saying that you have this authoritarian streak in your arguments that hold that the government can do no wrong and every social custom is acceptable because it's social custom. That's a particularly weak form of argumentation I'm afraid.

Just because the collective can enforce it's tyranny doesn't make doing so moral, ethical, rational, logical or acceptable.

And you fail, through this weaseling fallacy, to even try to explain why exactly I am responsible for your health. What relationship is there between us that would obligate me to pay for the consequences of your lifestyle and genetics? Why is your health more important than my health?

I doubt very much you will end up paying for an Englishman's medical expenses...

Oh, I don't know, the whole "one world government" juggernaut is well on its way already, and I can foresee the entire first world economy being compelled to subsidize the entire third-world's health care within the next 50 years or less.

(and I rather suspect that MrJonno's lifestyle is ascetic and absurdly healthy, and that he will live to 103, never entering a hospital, and dying in his own bed after excessive exertions with a widow half his age... Am I right, MJonno?)

So why do I have to pay for his unused health care insurance policy?

[JimC]

Seth wrote:

Oh, I don't know, the whole "one world government" juggernaut is well on its way already, and I can foresee the entire first world economy being compelled to subsidize the entire third-world's health care within the next 50 years or less.

Surely you will have shuffled off this mortal coil by then?

(moi aussi...)

[Seth]

Seth wrote:

Oh, I don't know, the whole "one world government" juggernaut is well on its way already, and I can foresee the entire first world economy being compelled to subsidize the entire third-world's health care within the next 50 years or less.

Surely you will have shuffled off this mortal coil by then?

(moi aussi...)

I can only hope it takes that long, otherwise I'm going to have to get nasty about it.

[JimC]

[piscator]

Someone else's health problems are THEIR problem, not mine.

Not if you have insurance.
If you have insurance, you pay for every other policyholder's problems. Your rates are set by the stats of the policyholders and acceptable profit margins, and your money goes to pay for their health problems.

Absolutely correct. The point is, however, that prior to Obamacare I got to choose whether or not to have insurance...

But now I no longer have that choice. I am being FORCED to buy insurance... but I ain't doing it, no way, no how.

Which is it? "Forced", or "No way, no how"?


If you're a Vietnam vet like you say, you should qualify for Medicare pretty soon. Maybe you can stall these oppressive bastard Marxists out to promote the general welfare until such time as you no longer qualify for the abhorrent subjugation of Obamanation CommieCare, and die a free man, with good old fashioned American Medicare?

[Audley Strange]

And in the U.S. the Insurance Companies are indeed making the decision, albeit indirectly, by restricting payouts and regulating treatment, That's how insurance companies make money.

Yup, but you're not REQUIRED to pay an insurance company a dime if you don't want to...until now...in the US. If you CHOOSE to pay for health care insurance, as opposed to paying for actual health care directly from an actual provider as I do, then you are ACCEPTING the contract that the insurance company offers, so it's still a voluntary contract that you can get out of any time you want. If you don't like the contract, you can either negotiate it or find another company or go back to paying for actual medical services from the actual provider. But with socialized medicine you are COMPELLED to pay for coverage even if you don't want it, don't need it, and never use it. And if you choose NOT to use socialized medicine that you are COMPELLED to pay for, then you have to pay TWICE for actual medical care, once to the State so it can provide medical services to SOMEONE ELSE, and once for your own actual medical care.

Yes I understand that you don't like being compelled to shell out your cash to others. I don't think anyone anywhere who has read anything you have said is unaware of that. I was pointing out that you do have a choice in Britain not to use the NHS and that there is little difference between a health board calling the shots and a Insurance company board. Recall I have worked in both sides of that and have family and friends who work in both the private and public medical sectors including pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies.

You and I, again, are not in much of a disagreement about the U.S. medical system (except for who the culprits are) but with all due respect, when it comes to our system you don't seem to have an accurate understanding of the mess we are in. Your view seems simplistic and purloined from alarmist right-wing media sources railing against Obamacare with exaggerated and nonsense comparisons rather than actual thought on your part. It's not even a strawman, its a scarecrow.

Sad thing is, it is a fucking mess, it may have been a fucking mess if left alone, but decades of interference by "Health for Profit" zealots in our parliament have made that mess as much as the bureaucrats who move in geological time. However the mess it is in is never touched by you, which is why I claim you don't know that much, if you did, I have no doubt you'd not need to resort to fantasy death panels.

(Hmmm that's a good idea for a thread...)