Is the USA uncivilised?

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Seth
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Re: Is the USA uncivilised?

Post by Seth » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:21 pm

Blind groper wrote:A reply to Seth, since I managed to glean one small point out of the stream of obscenities.

Seth disputed my point that the USA started pretty much every war in the last several decades that was between two or more countries, as opposed to civil wars.

Seth failed to note that I am talking of the present, not 1776. So my point stands.
No, your point does not stand. Even when you try to move the goalposts you're still wrong. The United States has NEVER gone to war with another nation without serious provocation. Ever. I challenge you to cite one single instance where the US has done what Hitler did to Poland, or what Saddam did to Kuwait, or what Egypt did to Israel, or what Japan did to the US.

Go ahead, give it a bash.
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Re: Is the USA uncivilised?

Post by Blind groper » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:03 pm

Seth wrote:The United States has NEVER gone to war with another nation without serious provocation.
That very much depends on your definition of 'serious'. Historically, nations have gone to war numerous times based on assorted pretexts, which are as phoney as they come. The USA is no different (except that other western nations stopped that uncivilised behaviour some time back.).

Dubya attacked Iraq under the pretext of weapons of mass destruction. That was phoney. He attacked Afghanistan because of 9/11, which sounds OK until you wake up to the fact that he totally failed to attack Al Qaeda, wich was behind 9/11. Dubya attacked Afghanistan purely to get himself re-relected, since the American people were screaming for drastic action at the time. He killed tens of thousands of people, including his own soldiers, for a war that was utterly pointless.

The same applies to most of the wars the USA started. They had a pretext, or rationalisation, but nothing real.

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Re: Is the USA uncivilised?

Post by Warren Dew » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:11 pm

Seth wrote:The United States has NEVER gone to war with another nation without serious provocation. Ever. I challenge you to cite one single instance where the US has done what Hitler did to Poland, or what Saddam did to Kuwait, or what Egypt did to Israel, or what Japan did to the US.
Not that I disagree with your main point, but three of those four cases involved serious provocation - Danzig, Rumaila, and Gaza/Sinai. Japan was the only one without an obvious serious provocation.

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Re: Is the USA uncivilised?

Post by klr » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:28 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Seth wrote:The United States has NEVER gone to war with another nation without serious provocation. Ever. I challenge you to cite one single instance where the US has done what Hitler did to Poland, or what Saddam did to Kuwait, or what Egypt did to Israel, or what Japan did to the US.
Not that I disagree with your main point, but three of those four cases involved serious provocation - Danzig, Rumaila, and Gaza/Sinai. Japan was the only one without an obvious serious provocation.
Danzig was reason enough to go to war and carve up Poland along with the USSR? Eh, no. :what: It was a convenient pretext, nothing more.

Ditto Saddam and Kuwait. That was just a case of "if it think I can grab it, I will". Possible unfair usage of oil fields hardly counts as a valid casus belli.

As for Egypt and Israel: Even that doesn't really qualify, since the goal was not to liberate territory, but to wipe out a state, and engage large-scale ethnic cleansing, if not outright genocide.
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Re: Is the USA uncivilised?

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:19 pm

Seth wrote:
Blind groper wrote:A reply to Seth, since I managed to glean one small point out of the stream of obscenities.

Seth disputed my point that the USA started pretty much every war in the last several decades that was between two or more countries, as opposed to civil wars.

Seth failed to note that I am talking of the present, not 1776. So my point stands.
No, your point does not stand. Even when you try to move the goalposts you're still wrong. The United States has NEVER gone to war with another nation without serious provocation. Ever. I challenge you to cite one single instance where the US has done what Hitler did to Poland, or what Saddam did to Kuwait, or what Egypt did to Israel, or what Japan did to the US.

Go ahead, give it a bash.
I know this is pointless, as you will deny it, but the US (and Australia and Poland or some other random country) went to war with Iraq without serious (ney ANY) provocation. You will blather on about UN resolution xyz, but that resolution didn't call for unilateral triggering of invasion. There was no backing of the UN security council for that action, let alone the whole UN. It was purely a vendetta by Georgey Porgey coz Saddam dissed his daddy and they also happened to have SHITLOADS of oil.

I await your specious denial. :coffee:
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Re: Is the USA uncivilised?

Post by Seth » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:27 pm

Blind groper wrote:
Seth wrote:The United States has NEVER gone to war with another nation without serious provocation.
That very much depends on your definition of 'serious'. Historically, nations have gone to war numerous times based on assorted pretexts, which are as phoney as they come. The USA is no different (except that other western nations stopped that uncivilised behaviour some time back.).
Actually, it's very different.

Dubya attacked Iraq under the pretext of weapons of mass destruction. That was phoney.
No, it wasn't. Bush the Elder responded to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait according to our ally agreement with Kuwait. Saddam got pushed back and hostilities were put on hold but were conditioned on his full cooperation with UN inspections regarding WMD's he was both KNOWN to have and that he was suspected of having, or being in the process of developing. We know he had Sarin, which is a WMD, because he used it on the Kurds a decade earlier. He worked hard to convince everyone, including the Coalition, all of whom voted to reinstate hostilities, that he was developing both biological and nuclear WMDs, and he refused 14 times in 12 years to cooperate with UN WMD inspectors according to the cease-fire agreement. Therefore, Bush II in no way "attacked Iraq" under any pretext whatsoever. He restarted hostilities initiated by Saddam after 12 years of attempts to get him to comply with the cease fire agreement which Saddam brought upon himself by invading Kuwait.

So, once again your argument is completely fucked by historical facts.
He attacked Afghanistan because of 9/11, which sounds OK until you wake up to the fact that he totally failed to attack Al Qaeda, wich was behind 9/11.


Except that Al Qaeda was allied with the Taliban, which was itself engaging in gross humanitarian violations, and Osama was in fact IN Afghanistan at the time (at Tora Bora), so once again your argument is completely fucked by historical facts.
Dubya attacked Afghanistan purely to get himself re-relected, since the American people were screaming for drastic action at the time. He killed tens of thousands of people, including his own soldiers, for a war that was utterly pointless.
Wasn't pointless to me. We got Osama.
The same applies to most of the wars the USA started. They had a pretext, or rationalisation, but nothing real.
That's what you claim, but you're always wrong, which is why you don't bother to try to make your case. You're just spouting anti-American vitriol consisting of nothing more or less than your own biased and ignorance-based political agenda.

Meh.
:bored:
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Re: Is the USA uncivilised?

Post by Seth » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:38 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
Blind groper wrote:A reply to Seth, since I managed to glean one small point out of the stream of obscenities.

Seth disputed my point that the USA started pretty much every war in the last several decades that was between two or more countries, as opposed to civil wars.

Seth failed to note that I am talking of the present, not 1776. So my point stands.
No, your point does not stand. Even when you try to move the goalposts you're still wrong. The United States has NEVER gone to war with another nation without serious provocation. Ever. I challenge you to cite one single instance where the US has done what Hitler did to Poland, or what Saddam did to Kuwait, or what Egypt did to Israel, or what Japan did to the US.

Go ahead, give it a bash.
I know this is pointless, as you will deny it, but the US (and Australia and Poland or some other random country) went to war with Iraq without serious (ney ANY) provocation.
Wrong. Invading an ally of ours compels and authorizes us to respond in defense of our ally, which is what we did.
You will blather on about UN resolution xyz, but that resolution didn't call for unilateral triggering of invasion. There was no backing of the UN security council for that action, let alone the whole UN. It was purely a vendetta by Georgey Porgey coz Saddam dissed his daddy and they also happened to have SHITLOADS of oil.

I await your specious denial. :coffee:
I'm going to start calling you "rEvisionist." Obviously you've forgotten that the leaders of every member of the Coalition agreed that the reopening of hostilities by Bush the Lesser was justified and necessary, including people like Hillary Clinton.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Is the USA uncivilised?

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:53 pm

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
Blind groper wrote:A reply to Seth, since I managed to glean one small point out of the stream of obscenities.

Seth disputed my point that the USA started pretty much every war in the last several decades that was between two or more countries, as opposed to civil wars.

Seth failed to note that I am talking of the present, not 1776. So my point stands.
No, your point does not stand. Even when you try to move the goalposts you're still wrong. The United States has NEVER gone to war with another nation without serious provocation. Ever. I challenge you to cite one single instance where the US has done what Hitler did to Poland, or what Saddam did to Kuwait, or what Egypt did to Israel, or what Japan did to the US.

Go ahead, give it a bash.
I know this is pointless, as you will deny it, but the US (and Australia and Poland or some other random country) went to war with Iraq without serious (ney ANY) provocation.
Wrong. Invading an ally of ours compels and authorizes us to respond in defense of our ally, which is what we did.
You will blather on about UN resolution xyz, but that resolution didn't call for unilateral triggering of invasion. There was no backing of the UN security council for that action, let alone the whole UN. It was purely a vendetta by Georgey Porgey coz Saddam dissed his daddy and they also happened to have SHITLOADS of oil.

I await your specious denial. :coffee:
I'm going to start calling you "rEvisionist." Obviously you've forgotten that the leaders of every member of the Coalition agreed that the reopening of hostilities by Bush the Lesser was justified and necessary, including people like Hillary Clinton.
There was only about 2 other non-joke countries in the coalition (UK and Australia), and militarily-wise, Australia is only just above joke status. There was no UN mandate for an invasion. It was a selfish act by the US. Only extreme right wingers now try and justify it as anything other than a gross crime.
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Re: Is the USA uncivilised?

Post by Warren Dew » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:32 am

klr wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
Seth wrote:The United States has NEVER gone to war with another nation without serious provocation. Ever. I challenge you to cite one single instance where the US has done what Hitler did to Poland, or what Saddam did to Kuwait, or what Egypt did to Israel, or what Japan did to the US.
Not that I disagree with your main point, but three of those four cases involved serious provocation - Danzig, Rumaila, and Gaza/Sinai. Japan was the only one without an obvious serious provocation.
Danzig was reason enough to go to war and carve up Poland along with the USSR?
It was reason enough to go to war. I grant that occupying all of Poland and dividing it up with the Soviet Union may have been overreaction, but the question here just regards going to war, not how far you take the war after it starts.

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Re: Is the USA uncivilised?

Post by Jason » Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:23 am

Mayhap someday we'll meet and we can see whose is bigger. 'Till then I'm afraid you'll have to take my word for it. :levi:

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Re: Is the USA uncivilised?

Post by SteveB » Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:31 am

I'm leaving it tomorrow, it's that uncivilized. :dq:
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Re: Is the USA uncivilised?

Post by Jason » Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:35 am

Why in the seven hells would you come back just when winter is coming? :what:

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Re: Is the USA uncivilised?

Post by SteveB » Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:47 am

I'm an extremophile. :sofa:
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Re: Is the USA uncivilised?

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:56 am

Făkünamę wrote:If I take you both at your word, it changes little. Be the bigger man.
"Bigger man" what? What are you talking about?
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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Re: Is the USA uncivilised?

Post by Jason » Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:57 am

It's an idiom.. you've never heard it before?

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