Is the USA uncivilised?

[cronus]

Then there's the third world militaristic jingoism, not much different from North Korea and Iran, that crops up again and again. We'd better be careful they might resort to photoshop if in a corner?

[JimC]

Militaristic jingoism is a reasonably common uncivilised trait, but the US is only a fairly light-weight player in that particular game, quite a few others are heavy-weight contenders...

But its days are gone, if you wish to be seen other than a buffoon and a bully...

Tom Clancy is no longer with us, folks...

[Blind groper]

Is a bit disappointing that some people have resorted to ad hom attacks rather than addressing what I see as a valid question.

Is the USA uncivilised?
Obviously, some people will respond with a fervent "no". Fair enough. But it would be interesting to see how this answer would be justified.

When I look at the way things are done in the USA, I see a lot in common with barbarities that Britain and other western nations used to engage in, but have now discarded. For example, when enemy POW's are waterboarded, that is barbaric. There is no way around that.

There are many ways to run a society. Given the choice, should we not aim to use methods and behaviours that represent the next rung of the ladder to higher civilisation?

If you think I am wrong, then I am happy to be told so. But it would be better to see a post justifying that view than one that falls back on personal attacks, which must be an example of personal uncivilised behaviour.

[Collector1337]

You are wrong.

[JimC]

You are wrong.

Such a deeply constructed rebuttal...

Still, always good to show others one's true intellectual capabilities...

[pErvinalia]

This is a genuine question.

Couple of definitions.
I consider there to be several kinds of 'civilised'. A nation with high technology could be said to be technologically civilised. That is not what I am talking about here. Instead, I am talking of social civilisation - how people behave.

Nor am I talking of individual Americans, some of whom are wonderful people. Rather, the overall American culture, and such behaviours that are widespread.

I also have to specify that the word 'civilised' is purely relative. The USA is civilised compared to that hell hole of violence called Somalia, and compared to many Muslim nations. My query is relative to other western nations. That is, western Europe, including Britain. Scandinavia. Iceland. Canada. Australia, NZ. Japan. Singapore. Is the USA uncivilised in the social sense compared to those other western nations?

This idea, I admit, has been somewhat stimulated by the attitudes on this forum of strongly right wing and red necked Americans who post here. I am sure I need not name them.

If we look at Britain during its less civilised times, say 1,000 years ago, we see a number of correlations with modern day USA. Some examples include :

High level of religiosity. Britain today has only (recent survey) 12% of its population believing in a personal deity, where in the USA, it is 90%.

Death penalty.

Use of torture (and yes, waterboarding is torture).

Strong belief that lethal violence is acceptable as a problem solver for individuals, seen in the USA but not more civilised nations.

Belated abolition of slavery. USA later than others.

Legal discrimination against minorities. Again, the USA is slow reforming such inequities. Until Martin Luther King, for example, people of African descent were legally discriminated against compared to those of European descent. Today it is more against those who are gay.

Lack of willingness to cooperate with other nations on matters humanitarian. For example : the USA has not yet ratified the United Nations declaration on land mines.

Willingness to use military force to extend sphere of influence overseas, despite thousands or millions of people killed. This was distinctive among old time European royalty, but not in today's world, except in the USA.

Even something as mundane as weights and measures. The USA clings to an obsolete system.

My personal view is that the USA is essentially lagging behind the rest of the western world in matters social. This would seem to make it 'uncivilised' by comparison.

Given Americans are generally a friendly and polite people, I don't think "uncivilised" is the right word. I'd certainly agree that on average they are less civilised than much of the rest of the western world. But then again, it's not really comparing apples with apples. The US has a different ethos to society than much of the anglo and european world. They are more concerned with individual freedom than whether 'x' percent of society meets a certain standard. So, in that regard, it's not surprising that they lag in social standards that others achieve.

Didn't they get this "freedom" guff from the French? It's interesting to compare the two today.

[JimC]

Yes, the term "uncivilised" is pushing it, certainly, and it might seem to some to be a personal slight....

As an overall society, having deficits in a surprising number of areas considering their economic power overall is another matter...

[pErvinalia]

Legal discrimination against minorities. Again, the USA is slow reforming such inequities. Until Martin Luther King, for example, people of African descent were legally discriminated against compared to those of European descent. Today it is more against those who are gay.

Again, you need to look at this state by state. In terms of gay rights, some US states are well ahead of some supposedly "civilised" countries, not just in laws, but in social attitude.

This is a good point. There are some states in the US that are far ahead socially than Australia is.

The US really is a strange beast. You have some of the most progressive and smart and caring people in the world, and you have some real fucking knuckle heads that you just couldn't imagine finding in significant numbers in other countries. A very diverse place indeed.

[JimC]

Legal discrimination against minorities. Again, the USA is slow reforming such inequities. Until Martin Luther King, for example, people of African descent were legally discriminated against compared to those of European descent. Today it is more against those who are gay.

Again, you need to look at this state by state. In terms of gay rights, some US states are well ahead of some supposedly "civilised" countries, not just in laws, but in social attitude.

This is a good point. There are some states in the US that are far ahead socially than Australia is.

The US really is a strange beast. You have some of the most progressive and smart and caring people in the world, and you have some real fucking knuckle heads that you just could imagine finding in significant numbers in other countries. A very diverse place indeed.

For the rest of the world, the important thing is the actions, military, political or economic, of their federal government.

The differences between a Texan redneck and a Californian gay activist dwindle with distance...

[pErvinalia]

Here's the good news: We over here in America don't give a flying fuck what you think about us because we're bigger, better, stronger and our cause is just.

How very religious of you, Seth.

[JimC]

Here's the good news: We over here in America don't give a flying fuck what you think about us because we're bigger, better, stronger and our cause is just.

How very religious of you, Seth.

Don't you love it when they prove your point for you?

[pErvinalia]

He is expressing contentions you may disagree with

No, that's not what he's doing. I've already explained this twice, but apparently didn't do a good job of it.

You are interpreting his statements as having an anti-US bias.

Just think for a moment that this might be a very natural defensive response from a US citizen, rather than an reasoned analysis of what he is trying to assert (given that the assertions can be argued for or against...)

How is "Is the USA uncivilised?" not anti-US?


The question, "Should the US do away with the death penalty?" would be a perfectly reasonable question which could serve as a launching point for productive and civil discussion. Likewise, "Why is America more religious than some European nations?" would also be a perfectly reasonable question which could lead to a lively and productive discussion.



Now, what on earth can be gained from attempting to place Group X into a category that carries negative connotations? What is the point of labeling Group X "uncivilized"? The only purpose this serves is to separate Group X out and away from the other groups for further vilification and demonization. It is divisive rhetoric from a supercilious jackass. It's not all that dissimilar to the way Tyrannical uses IQ stats and crime rates to dehumanize black people.

Personally, I support this thread because it will rile up Seth and Coito. That alone makes the thread worthwhile...

[JimC]

[pErvinalia]

Legal discrimination against minorities. Again, the USA is slow reforming such inequities. Until Martin Luther King, for example, people of African descent were legally discriminated against compared to those of European descent. Today it is more against those who are gay.

Again, you need to look at this state by state. In terms of gay rights, some US states are well ahead of some supposedly "civilised" countries, not just in laws, but in social attitude.

This is a good point. There are some states in the US that are far ahead socially than Australia is.

The US really is a strange beast. You have some of the most progressive and smart and caring people in the world, and you have some real fucking knuckle heads that you just could imagine finding in significant numbers in other countries. A very diverse place indeed.

For the rest of the world, the important thing is the actions, military, political or economic, of their federal government.

The differences between a Texan redneck and a Californian gay activist dwindle with distance...

Yeah, true. In a sense, they are hampered by this republic thing. Obviously a republic of diverse ideas could be a good breading ground for a progressive society. But when half of those diverse ideas are cemented in the last, or even previous to that, century, it's just a recipe for trouble. I'm sure the federal government would love to outlaw the death penalty across the country and probably even allow gay civil unions across the country. But they simply can't because of the backwards redneck states that hold a certain amount of power by right of the constitution.

[pErvinalia]