Is the USA uncivilised?

[Blind groper]

This is a genuine question.

Couple of definitions.
I consider there to be several kinds of 'civilised'. A nation with high technology could be said to be technologically civilised. That is not what I am talking about here. Instead, I am talking of social civilisation - how people behave.

Nor am I talking of individual Americans, some of whom are wonderful people. Rather, the overall American culture, and such behaviours that are widespread.

I also have to specify that the word 'civilised' is purely relative. The USA is civilised compared to that hell hole of violence called Somalia, and compared to many Muslim nations. My query is relative to other western nations. That is, western Europe, including Britain. Scandinavia. Iceland. Canada. Australia, NZ. Japan. Singapore. Is the USA uncivilised in the social sense compared to those other western nations?

This idea, I admit, has been somewhat stimulated by the attitudes on this forum of strongly right wing and red necked Americans who post here. I am sure I need not name them.

If we look at Britain during its less civilised times, say 1,000 years ago, we see a number of correlations with modern day USA. Some examples include :

High level of religiosity. Britain today has only (recent survey) 12% of its population believing in a personal deity, where in the USA, it is 90%.

Death penalty.

Use of torture (and yes, waterboarding is torture).

Strong belief that lethal violence is acceptable as a problem solver for individuals, seen in the USA but not more civilised nations.

Belated abolition of slavery. USA later than others.

Legal discrimination against minorities. Again, the USA is slow reforming such inequities. Until Martin Luther King, for example, people of African descent were legally discriminated against compared to those of European descent. Today it is more against those who are gay.

Lack of willingness to cooperate with other nations on matters humanitarian. For example : the USA has not yet ratified the United Nations declaration on land mines.

Willingness to use military force to extend sphere of influence overseas, despite thousands or millions of people killed. This was distinctive among old time European royalty, but not in today's world, except in the USA.

Even something as mundane as weights and measures. The USA clings to an obsolete system.

My personal view is that the USA is essentially lagging behind the rest of the western world in matters social. This would seem to make it 'uncivilised' by comparison.

[JimC]

Belated abolition of slavery. USA later than others.

Legal discrimination against minorities. Again, the USA is slow reforming such inequities. Until Martin Luther King, for example, people of African descent were legally discriminated against compared to those of European descent. Today it is more against those who are gay.

These parts are perhaps a little unfair. Belated, perhaps, but slavery has gone, and there is a powerful sentiment (and laws) against racial discrimination. Also, I think that US legal positions on homosexuality are within the general range of laws within the basket of countries you mentioned.

Willingness to use military force to extend sphere of influence overseas, despite thousands or millions of people killed. This was distinctive among old time European royalty, but not in today's world, except in the USA.

At least some instances of US military action in recent times could be seen to have some reasonable justification other than the naked projection of power based on self-interest.

I think the answer to your question is a qualified "no", reserving the right to significant disquiet about some aspects of US culture and politics. However, I can think of many places in the world where "significant disquiet" would rate the epithet of a gross understatement...

[Seabass]

This is a genuine question.

Couple of definitions.
I consider there to be several kinds of 'civilised'. A nation with high technology could be said to be technologically civilised. That is not what I am talking about here. Instead, I am talking of social civilisation - how people behave.

Nor am I talking of individual Americans, some of whom are wonderful people. Rather, the overall American culture, and such behaviours that are widespread.

I also have to specify that the word 'civilised' is purely relative. The USA is civilised compared to that hell hole of violence called Somalia, and compared to many Muslim nations. My query is relative to other western nations. That is, western Europe, including Britain. Scandinavia. Iceland. Canada. Australia, NZ. Japan. Singapore. Is the USA uncivilised in the social sense compared to those other western nations?

This idea, I admit, has been somewhat stimulated by the attitudes on this forum of strongly right wing and red necked Americans who post here. I am sure I need not name them.

If we look at Britain during its less civilised times, say 1,000 years ago, we see a number of correlations with modern day USA. Some examples include :

High level of religiosity. Britain today has only (recent survey) 12% of its population believing in a personal deity, where in the USA, it is 90%.

Death penalty.

Use of torture (and yes, waterboarding is torture).

Strong belief that lethal violence is acceptable as a problem solver for individuals, seen in the USA but not more civilised nations.

Belated abolition of slavery. USA later than others.

Legal discrimination against minorities. Again, the USA is slow reforming such inequities. Until Martin Luther King, for example, people of African descent were legally discriminated against compared to those of European descent. Today it is more against those who are gay.

Lack of willingness to cooperate with other nations on matters humanitarian. For example : the USA has not yet ratified the United Nations declaration on land mines.

Willingness to use military force to extend sphere of influence overseas, despite thousands or millions of people killed. This was distinctive among old time European royalty, but not in today's world, except in the USA.

Even something as mundane as weights and measures. The USA clings to an obsolete system.

My personal view is that the USA is essentially lagging behind the rest of the western world in matters social. This would seem to make it 'uncivilised' by comparison.

Good grief, you are such a jackass. This post is so stupid it boggles the mind.

You can't divide the world into civilized/uncivilized, good/evil, black/white. Any child who has read Dr. Seuss knows this.


If you want to discuss the benefits and drawbacks of specific U.S. laws, that's fine. But this thread is nothing more than an exercise in smear, tribalism, and vilification.

[Tero]

Short answer: yes.

[Blind groper]

To seabass

I tried to make the question clear, with exact definitions. We use the term 'civilised' to relate to how people behave, and that term is clear enough to be the basis of a question.

Relative to other western nations, is the USA civilised or uncivilised?

In other words, are the behaviours shown by Americans, and especially those Americans acting out the will of the American government, up to the standards we think of as civilised?

I have my doubts, as you can see. Excessive religiosity is characteristic of earlier and more barbaric times. Excessive violence is characteristic of barbaric behaviour. Lousy treatment of prisoners, including POWs is characteristic of barbaric times, such as torture and executions.

If you have a good reason to deny that argument, please feel free to post it, instead of simply trying to deliver insults.

[klr]

High level of religiosity. Britain today has only (recent survey) 12% of its population believing in a personal deity, where in the USA, it is 90%.

I'm sure there are other studies that would put Britain at higher than 12% - perhaps considerably higher. There might also be studies that put the USA at less than 90%. These things need to be taken with a pinch of salt: After all, Ireland is supposedly still deeply religious according to some statistics, but the truth is radically different. The best that can be said is that the USA is more religious than many other "Western" or "developed" countries, but by no means all of them. Neither does belief in religion necessarily imply a deficiency in civilisation - and I say that as an atheist.

Death penalty.

Use of torture (and yes, waterboarding is torture).

Some (many?) US states have taken the death penalty off their books, so it would be unfair to tar a country of 300 million people with the one brush.

As for torture: Any country that large is going to do things that are unsavoury. It's one of the basic constants in all recorded history.

Strong belief that lethal violence is acceptable as a problem solver for individuals, seen in the USA but not more civilised nations.

I'll grant you this as well, but as with the death penalty, the problem is much more pronounced in some areas (e.g. the South) than others. It's also partly due to the constitution and legal system that the USA is saddled with, which makes it extremely difficult to resolve such issues.

Belated abolition of slavery. USA later than others.

The past - even the recent past - is irrelevant. What matters is the here and now, and in what direction things are heading. That's the only context in which the past is important, because you need that to detect trends.

Legal discrimination against minorities. Again, the USA is slow reforming such inequities. Until Martin Luther King, for example, people of African descent were legally discriminated against compared to those of European descent. Today it is more against those who are gay.

Again, you need to look at this state by state. In terms of gay rights, some US states are well ahead of some supposedly "civilised" countries, not just in laws, but in social attitude.

Lack of willingness to cooperate with other nations on matters humanitarian. For example : the USA has not yet ratified the United Nations declaration on land mines.

Because it wants an exception for the DMZ in Korea, which is completely understandable. Like some other notable non-signatories, it stills follows many of the regulations anyway.

Willingness to use military force to extend sphere of influence overseas, despite thousands or millions of people killed. This was distinctive among old time European royalty, but not in today's world, except in the USA.

Some yes, some no. There are going to be times when force is needed to address a problem. A failure to use it (or to threaten its use) is - IMHO - just as bad as using it improperly.

Even something as mundane as weights and measures. The USA clings to an obsolete system.

It's bizarre for the US to be an outlier on such a matter, but it does not make a population uncivilized. As things go, it's trivial.

[JimC]

Seabass wrote:

Good grief, you are such a jackass. This post is so stupid it boggles the mind.

You can't divide the world into civilized/uncivilized, good/evil, black/white. Any child who has read Dr. Seuss knows this.

If you want to discuss the benefits and drawbacks of specific U.S. laws, that's fine. But this thread is nothing more than an exercise in smear, tribalism, and vilification.

A very defensive position. At least some of the claims can be argued on a rational basis; to dismiss them out of hand as anti-American posturing is to adopt an ostrich-like, head in the sand position.

Views like this concerning the US (often expressed in much more savage uncompromising terms, without BG's careful caveats) are rather common in the non-US universe, and becoming more so. If the US chooses to ignore how it is regarded from the outside, it is in danger of a retreat into mindless narcissism; recent events in your politically paralysed country have seriously eroded the prestige and cachet of the once dominant US 'brand".

[Ian]

We must be uncivilised. We use the word uncivilized.

[Seabass]

Seabass wrote:

Good grief, you are such a jackass. This post is so stupid it boggles the mind.

You can't divide the world into civilized/uncivilized, good/evil, black/white. Any child who has read Dr. Seuss knows this.

If you want to discuss the benefits and drawbacks of specific U.S. laws, that's fine. But this thread is nothing more than an exercise in smear, tribalism, and vilification.

A very defensive position. At least some of the claims can be argued on a rational basis; to dismiss them out of hand as anti-American posturing is to adopt an ostrich-like, head in the sand position.

Views like this concerning the US (often expressed in much more savage uncompromising terms, without BG's careful caveats) are rather common in the non-US universe, and becoming more so. If the US chooses to ignore how it is regarded from the outside, it is in danger of a retreat into mindless narcissism; recent events in your politically paralysed country have seriously eroded the prestige and cachet of the once dominant US 'brand".

Oh please. Consider the following questions:

"Are blacks uncivilized? More violence, more crime, more shooting, more robberies, more rape, etc. than non-blacks. Clearly, blacks are uncivilized compared to non-blacks."
or
"Black on black violence in America: A discussion of reasons and possible solutions."

Do you see the difference? Which of these topics do you reckon African Americans might find more offensive?



Blind Groper's modus operandi is to gather and compile "evidence" of American inferiority, and he does so by carefully selecting categories, statistics, definitions, and parameters in such a way that separates America from all other countries, and puts us at the back of the pack. His methods and motives are pretty goddamn transparent, really, but he doesn't cuss, so people think he's civil.

[Ian]

Plus his statistics and parameters are bogus. Off the top of me head, he says that 90% of Americans consider themselves religious. That's so wrong it makes me wonder if he's ever set foot in the US.

[Tero]

They are "spiritual".

[Seth]

This is a genuine question.

Couple of definitions.
I consider there to be several kinds of 'civilised'. A nation with high technology could be said to be technologically civilised. That is not what I am talking about here. Instead, I am talking of social civilisation - how people behave.

Nor am I talking of individual Americans, some of whom are wonderful people. Rather, the overall American culture, and such behaviours that are widespread.

I also have to specify that the word 'civilised' is purely relative. The USA is civilised compared to that hell hole of violence called Somalia, and compared to many Muslim nations. My query is relative to other western nations. That is, western Europe, including Britain. Scandinavia. Iceland. Canada. Australia, NZ. Japan. Singapore. Is the USA uncivilised in the social sense compared to those other western nations?

This idea, I admit, has been somewhat stimulated by the attitudes on this forum of strongly right wing and red necked Americans who post here. I am sure I need not name them.

Coward.

If we look at Britain during its less civilised times, say 1,000 years ago, we see a number of correlations with modern day USA. Some examples include :

High level of religiosity. Britain today has only (recent survey) 12% of its population believing in a personal deity, where in the USA, it is 90%.

Is this a good thing? Perhaps not. Britain is full of mindless proletarian idiots who do whatever they are told other than brushing their teeth who think they are somehow superior to everyone else, but aren't. Perhaps a dearth of religion explains the decline of the British empire and British people generally. I'd like to think so anyway.

Death penalty.

Is this a bad thing? Some people need to be dead.

Use of torture (and yes, waterboarding is torture).

No it's not.

Strong belief that lethal violence is acceptable as a problem solver for individuals, seen in the USA but not more civilised nations.

Strawman fallacy. Nobody but you is claiming lethal force is a "problem solver." And every nation, including Britain, authorizes the use of deadly physical force in self defense. It's just that Brits aren't allowed any useful or efficient tools with which to defend themselves when lethal force is authorized. Believe me, the Brit police will kill you too if need be to solve their problems.

Belated abolition of slavery. USA later than others.

Wayback machine fallacy.

Legal discrimination against minorities. Again, the USA is slow reforming such inequities. Until Martin Luther King, for example, people of African descent were legally discriminated against compared to those of European descent.

Wayback machine fallacy.

Today it is more against those who are gay.

The US is far more advanced in its protection of gays than most of the rest of the world, where in many places they kill them. Just because some people object to gays co-opting the word "marriage" for political reasons doesn't mean the US is any better or worse than anybody else.

Lack of willingness to cooperate with other nations on matters humanitarian.

Complete lie.

For example : the USA has not yet ratified the United Nations declaration on land mines.

Whoop de fucking do. The US provides more money for humanitarian mine-removal efforts than you do.

Willingness to use military force to extend sphere of influence overseas, despite thousands or millions of people killed. This was distinctive among old time European royalty, but not in today's world, except in the USA.

Mendacious fallacy. Above you charge the US with delay in several areas as a calumny, yet here you excuse Britain's long, long, long history of violent and brutal imperialism and empire. Only an asshat does things like this.

Even something as mundane as weights and measures. The USA clings to an obsolete system.

It's not obsolete because we use it. Oh, and we got it from the Brits, whose system was far more arcane than ours.

My personal view is that the USA is essentially lagging behind the rest of the western world in matters social. This would seem to make it 'uncivilised' by comparison.

My personal view is that fuckwits who haven't the brains to navigate a sewer during a shit-storm ought to shut the fuck up and stick their heads back up their asses.

Here's the good news: We over here in America don't give a flying fuck what you think about us because we're bigger, better, stronger and our cause is just.

So, in sum, go fuck yourself.

[cronus]

The US is uncivilised on all the criteria stated and also using drugs (magic potions) to sedate its populace. Building industrial-prison complexes (workhouses) and imprisoning its poor often on spurious grounds in them, for a source of cheap labour. Not going back to the moon and dumping its shuttles....treating technological advances as one off's rather than progressive evolutionary forces which should be built upon - something like that is a marker for poor vision which is the way of the brutal folk, the Romans had a steam engine and threw it away and used the clock for sports events. A obsession with winning and a aversion to asking why the game is taking place. Seems a lag of a 150 years in civilized development coinciding with the rise in empire?

[JimC]

Seabass wrote:

Blind Groper's modus operandi is to gather and compile "evidence" of American inferiority, and he does so by carefully selecting categories, statistics, definitions, and parameters in such a way that separates America from all other countries, and puts us at the back of the pack. His methods and motives are pretty goddamn transparent, really, but he doesn't cuss, so people think he's civil.

For a start, the categories he chose are all significant and important to a society, but sure, there will be others. Why not try to select some new ones, in comparison to other western (or westernised) democracies? Perhaps some of these...

Availability of universal healthcare? Maybe not a good choice...

Consumption of natural resources per head of population?

Educational standards of teenagers?

Degree of inequality within a society?

Vibrant economy?

Keep looking, I'm sure some absolute winners will spring to mind...

[cronus]

Progressive mores, necessary for civilized development, can be ignored when you are wealthy and own the lawyers. Any empire carries within it the seeds of its own obsolescence as its mores lag those of peoples around it who will be supplying the raw materials for the wealth. At some point a criticality is reached when no other peoples acknowledge a redundant set of mores and access to raw materials is cut off. The empire implodes into civil strife until/unless a progressive group within the dying cinders of a long forgotten power pulls it out the swamp.