Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire economy

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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by piscator » Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:56 pm

Seth wrote:...
The reason Obamacare is preferable to single-payer socialized medicine is that you can at least switch providers if you're dissatisfied with the service, which leaves a small element of free-market pressure to keep costs low and provide good service.

...

Like you know a fucking thing about service... People don't do anything in your world save for their own profit or narcissism.

Privatization and competition hasn't improved the USPS one jot or tittle. And the "free-market [competitive] pressure" you have such faith in went out the window when they started licensing doctors and nurses and insurance companies.

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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Robert_S » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:28 pm

So, are we putting med students in too much debt, driving out the people who would otherwise have human compassion higher up on their list of motivations for becoming a doctor in the first place?? Are those 24 hour resident shifts doing anyone any good besides being a long drawn out hazing ritual too keep every doctor in the club?

Really, 24 hours? I say 12 at the most, alhtough I'd rather have it be 10 but scheduling would be simpler with 12. We don't like truckers to be going that long at a stretch, so why resident interns? I know I'm shit behind the wheel after being awake for 18 to 19 hours straight and right around 24 I lose my depth perception.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Seth » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:18 am

Scrumple wrote:
Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Libertarians are selfish. So when there's no state to protect me from them, I'm going to have to do it myself. :tea:
Well, that's what you're supposed to do, just as we Libertarians are supposed to protect ourselves from you.
I believe you are supposed to be friendly in a struggle for survival. :?
Depends on who you're struggling with and what they are doing.
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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Seth » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:20 am

Collector1337 wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
Collector1337 wrote:It's funny how you think Libertarians are bad.

Don't think its bad I think its pretty much the very definition of pure evil, Nazism and Communism at least claimed to improve society, libertarian doesn't care if it improves society or not only that the mystical individual could be better off

Good = pro society (collective in lib speak)
Evil = anti society
Wow. You are really ignorant and misinformed. Aren't you?
Extremely, willfully and deliberately so. Trollishly in fact. In other words just another Marxist parroting Big Lie tactics.
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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Seth » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:30 am

Tero wrote: Other than Canada, most countries do not ban private healthcare. A Finnish doctor can even refer you to Estonia for a cheaper clinic. He can work for the state and himself the same week.

You can have a hip now or a free Gubment hip, same quality, in 2 years.
I'm sorry, I left out the word "insurance" in "private healthcare industry."

There will inevitably be a two-tiered system; the grossly underfunded, slow, bureaucratic, inefficient, sub-standard government health care system that operates like "insurance" because it's available to anyone and the private health care system available to those who have money, but there will be NO private health care insurance industry at all, no HMOs in other words because of the asinine and entirely unlawful mandates from government that in order to offer ANY insurance service the company must provide ALL insurance services that the government deems "necessary" and "fair."

So the Warren Buffets of the world will get the best care on earth on demand and everyone else will perforce stand in line waiting for gummint care hoping they don't die before they get some pittance of what there is.
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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Seth » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:45 am

piscator wrote:
Seth wrote:...
The reason Obamacare is preferable to single-payer socialized medicine is that you can at least switch providers if you're dissatisfied with the service, which leaves a small element of free-market pressure to keep costs low and provide good service.

...

Like you know a fucking thing about service... People don't do anything in your world save for their own profit or narcissism.
ju
Wrong. People do stuff out of charity, altruism and enlightened self-interest all the time. Our entire system depends on those features of well-formed adult personalities. The difference between Libertarianism and Marxism is that Libertarians do such things because they are good people with a sense of public responsibility and enlightened self-interest who voluntarily work to make society better while Marxists view every single person as nothing more than a cog in the great Marxist machine who is completely replaceable and disposable and worse, is presumptively evil and selfish and must therefore be monitored, controlled, directed and forced to work for the benefit of others according to what the Marxist elite judge is that person's "ability," while only giving that person what the elite judge is suitable to his "need"....according to them.

In other words, Libertarian society works precisely because it assumes that healthy, sane adults with well-formed personalities understand the social need for charity, altruism, self-sacrifice, cooperation and other beneficial human traits that make societies work. Marxism doesn't work precisely because it assumes that everyone is a slave to the state who must be forced to do what's best for the collective irrespective of what the individual wants, thinks or cares about.

It's free will cooperation in beneficial ways versus centrally-controlled slavery to the interests of others.

Libertarianism simply works better because it's voluntary and people are motivated to do good things because they are mentally and emotionally stable and healthy rather than emotionally and mentally crippled as liberals and Marxists are.
Privatization and competition hasn't improved the USPS one jot or tittle.
That's because the USPS has neither been privatized nor forced to compete, although that's what the bureaucrats would like you to think. If it had been privatized and forced to compete it wouldn't exist today and UPS and FedEx would be delivering mail faster, cheaper and more reliably than the USPS ever imagined in it's most fevered fantasy.

It's precisely BECAUSE the USPS has a congressionally-mandated lock on the delivery of mail (as opposed to parcels or urgent documents) that it can run inefficiently and at a deficit that has to be bolstered by the taxpayers.

It is the quintessential example of the evils of TRUE monopolistic practices, which as I've said before, can only exist where the government itself interferes with or prohibits free-market competition.

Somebody needs to put a stake through the heart of the USPS and turn the whole thing over to private industry, which will certainly do a better job that the overpaid union USPS employees who take more breaks that they actually work.

And the "free-market [competitive] pressure" you have such faith in went out the window when they started licensing doctors and nurses and insurance companies.[/quote]
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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:24 am

Collector1337 wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Libertarians are selfish. So when there's no state to protect me from them, I'm going to have to do it myself. :tea:
Why are Libertarians selfish?
Because it's an ideology centred around gross self-interest.
Why are you so scared of them?
It's an ideology of fear and distrust. When resources are tight, they won't be looking to work together for the benefit of all, they will work together in small groups to take from those who have resources. If I saw a libertarian coming near me after the collapse of society, I'd probably shoot first. Just to be sure. :tea:
What is it you think they are doing to do to you?
Take my stuff.
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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Tero » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:50 pm

There is pretty much one price healthcare now. There is no budget care other than freee clinics run by Gubment, cities or foundations. Guy on Reddit explains:
[–]meeper88 75 points76 points77 points 7 hours ago*

I would also point out that the Democrats have been signalling their intention to pass some form of health care reform since the mid-90's. The Republicans had plenty of time to negotiate terms under Clinton, and to pass something extremely palatable to the Republicans under Bush. Instead, they chose to entirely ignore the issue.

When the Democrats crafted the ACA, the Republicans did have input and terms were negotiated. But the Republicans absolutely hate the idea of health care reform and keep trying to insist that they have the opportunity to make it into something they find more tolerable, completely ignoring the fact that (1) they had plenty of warning that health care reform would become an issue, and (2) they had plenty of opportunity to craft something completely to their liking under Bush, particularly during those periods when the Republicans had control of both the House and the Senate. It's pretty much their own damn fault that the ACA is something they loathe.

edit: I know that ACA is based off Romney's plan from Massachusetts. I'm simply pointing out that congressional Republicans are saying that the ACA was rushed through and there wasn't enough consultation on it, when in reality they've known for fifteen years that health care reform was a Democratic priority. They had the time to either implement their own plan or work on something they liked more. The fact that they didn't bother and are now stuck with something they don't like is their own damn fault.

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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Seth » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:11 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
Collector1337 wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Libertarians are selfish. So when there's no state to protect me from them, I'm going to have to do it myself. :tea:
Why are Libertarians selfish?
Because it's an ideology centred around gross self-interest.
Nope. It's centered around individual liberty, which is something completely different.
Why are you so scared of them?
It's an ideology of fear and distrust.
Nope. It's an ideology of mutual respect and concern.
When resources are tight, they won't be looking to work together for the benefit of all, they will work together in small groups to take from those who have resources.


Nope. Precisely the opposite of the truth. Libertarianism in fact forbids everyone from taking anything from another without that person's consent because to do so is an initiation of force and/or fraud.
If I saw a libertarian coming near me after the collapse of society, I'd probably shoot first. Just to be sure. :tea:
Such ignorance. Willful, deliberate and mendacious ignorance. Strawman fallacy actually. You deliberately mischaracterize Libertarianism in a classic Marxist/Alinsky fashion because you have no actual rational argument to make against it.
What is it you think they are doing to do to you?
Take my stuff.
Vacuous nonsense. It's the socialists who are going to take your stuff. Remember, from each according to his ability? Sheesh. :fp:
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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Seth » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:14 pm

Tero wrote:There is pretty much one price healthcare now. There is no budget care other than freee clinics run by Gubment, cities or foundations. Guy on Reddit explains:
Guy is an idiot and a poor-quality revisionist. I get "budget care" every time because there is competition in the health care marketplace and I can therefore negotiate an acceptable price because I pay in cash.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:31 pm

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Collector1337 wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Libertarians are selfish. So when there's no state to protect me from them, I'm going to have to do it myself. :tea:
Why are Libertarians selfish?
Because it's an ideology centred around gross self-interest.
Nope. It's centered around individual liberty, which is something completely different.
ahem: "Libertarians do such things because they are good people with a sense of public responsibility and enlightened self-interest" - Seth.
Why are you so scared of them?
It's an ideology of fear and distrust.
Nope. It's an ideology of mutual respect and concern.
Could have fooled me.
When resources are tight, they won't be looking to work together for the benefit of all, they will work together in small groups to take from those who have resources.


Nope. Precisely the opposite of the truth. Libertarianism in fact forbids everyone from taking anything from another without that person's consent because to do so is an initiation of force and/or fraud.
Yeah, but selfishness will win out in the end. What's a bigger tenet of Libbo'ism? Selfishness or commitment to do no force/fraud? I say the former.
If I saw a libertarian coming near me after the collapse of society, I'd probably shoot first. Just to be sure. :tea:
Such ignorance. Willful, deliberate and mendacious ignorance. Strawman fallacy actually. You deliberately mischaracterize Libertarianism in a classic Marxist/Alinsky fashion because you have no actual rational argument to make against it.
Libertarians are selfish, plain and simple. They think about themselves first before others. Hence, if I had something that a libertarian didn't, then I would be very wary of them. Not least because they tend to be armed nutjobs as well. I'm a bit jumpy, so I'd just shoot first.
What is it you think they are doing to do to you?
Take my stuff.
Vacuous nonsense. It's the socialists who are going to take your stuff. Remember, from each according to his ability? Sheesh. :fp:
[/quote]

Selfishness will win out in the libbo's mind. It's primarily an ideology of selfishness. You guys kid yourselves that it is because enlightened self-interest will lead to a better society, but you all know when it comes down to it, you follow it because you are currently comfortable and are fearful of your stuff being taken. You want to maintain your comfort, even at the expense of others. That's why I would never trust a right libertarian in a post-societal world. They'd be after as much stuff as they could get to make themselves comfortable at the expense of others. :tea:
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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by subversive science » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:37 pm

In other words, Libertarian society works precisely because it assumes that healthy, sane adults with well-formed personalities understand the social need for charity, altruism, self-sacrifice, cooperation and other beneficial human traits that make societies work. Marxism doesn't work precisely because it assumes that everyone is a slave to the state who must be forced to do what's best for the collective irrespective of what the individual wants, thinks or cares about.
The problem with Libertarianism is that assumes this utopic society in which everyone is equal. This ignores institutionalized inequalities that a realistic government must mitigate.
It's precisely BECAUSE the USPS has a congressionally-mandated lock on the delivery of mail (as opposed to parcels or urgent documents) that it can run inefficiently and at a deficit that has to be bolstered by the taxpayers.
The post office runs a deficit because congress requires it to fund retirements unrealistically far into the future (50 years I believe).
Marxist... Marxist... Marxist...
What's with the Groucho Marx obsession? It seems unhealthful.

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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by Ian » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:39 pm

I'm more of a Harpo Marx fan, myself...

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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by subversive science » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:45 pm

Ian wrote:I'm more of a Harpo Marx fan, myself...
:cheers:

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Re: Obama slams Republicans for threat to blow up entire eco

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:46 pm

subversive science wrote:
In other words, Libertarian society works precisely because it assumes that healthy, sane adults with well-formed personalities understand the social need for charity, altruism, self-sacrifice, cooperation and other beneficial human traits that make societies work. Marxism doesn't work precisely because it assumes that everyone is a slave to the state who must be forced to do what's best for the collective irrespective of what the individual wants, thinks or cares about.
The problem with Libertarianism is that assumes this utopic society in which everyone is equal. This ignores institutionalized inequalities that a realistic government must mitigate.
The invisible hand will take care of all that stuff, man. :levi:
Marxist... Marxist... Marxist...
What's with the Groucho Marx obsession? It seems unhealthful.
Get used to it. He's been doing it for years, and it gets worse and worse with each passing year. I fear for his paranoia of Marxists as he continues to age. I can see a mass shooting on the horizon. :?
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