Day care worker may be the worst human ever.

[pErvinalia]

That doesn't mean that a person who would rape a one year old infant doesn't merit a special sort of disgust.... there is something about a person who would do things to a one year old child. Something that triggers my gag reflex. Perhaps it's the ability to "understand" straight out killing in some sense -- there can be rationales for it -- money, power, politics, etc. The rape of an infant, though, seems so downright horrid. So reprehensible. So devoid of any sense or purpose. So contrary to human nature -- I mean, most folks when they see an infant see something to protect, something cute, something without any sort of sexual component, and something that one would not wish to harm in any way. So, when a person not only harms an infant, but also so callously and disgustingly uses the infant for sick sexual gratification... well, in my view, they deserve a special circle of hell, metaphorically speaking.

Despite the universal wrongness of agreeing with anything Coit says, this is pretty much my feeling on the issue as well. There can be rationales (if twisted at times) for killing someone. It's hard to think of any rationale for raping an infant.

[pErvinalia]

So, rape is worse than death now?

Many rape victims say yes.

Yeah. And they're wrong.

As a therapist I've had many clients who have been raped, get depressed and want to commit suicide.

What do you think I tell them?

"Oh yeah, rape is totally worse than death. Might as well just commit suicide then."

That would make me a pretty shitty therapist wouldn't it?

Being raped is not worse than being dead, ever. Period.

I disagree.

Yeah, I don't know how he can say that in an absolutist sense. There's certainly likely to be some cases where a person suffers so much after a rape that they would probably rightly wish they were dead.

[pErvinalia]

Rape is clearly not as bad as death/murder since you'd still be living after the rape. Just saying.

In a purely academic sense, yes.

However, from the perspective of the victim, there are clearly things that happen in life that can effect them in a way that is worse than death. The evidence of that is that sometimes a rape or abuse victim will commit suicide, which means that to them they preferred to die rather than to live with the effects of issue.

And, if a person did that to my daughter, I would certainly kill them if I had the chance, and I would want to do so whether I died or got the death penalty, because some things, to me, are worse than death.

Obviously psychology and mental health are not your strong suits.

No one who commits suicide are in their right mind. Committing suicide is not rational, having been raped or not.

As I say on occasion, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

But what if it's not temporary? Surely there are some victims who never get over past traumas?

[mistermack]

Name a case where being raped is worse than being murdered.

How about life in prison being your cellmate's bitch?

Don't see the problem there. If you're doing life, then you just kill your cellmate.
Even if he's gigantic, he'll have to fall asleep sometime.

[mistermack]

The thing about rape being worse than death, is that nobody has ever been able to compare both.
They are just guessing.

[pErvinalia]

Rape is clearly not as bad as death/murder since you'd still be living after the rape. Just saying.

In a purely academic sense, yes.

However, from the perspective of the victim, there are clearly things that happen in life that can effect them in a way that is worse than death. The evidence of that is that sometimes a rape or abuse victim will commit suicide, which means that to them they preferred to die rather than to live with the effects of issue.

And, if a person did that to my daughter, I would certainly kill them if I had the chance, and I would want to do so whether I died or got the death penalty, because some things, to me, are worse than death.

Obviously psychology and mental health are not your strong suits.

I never claimed it to be. However, whether something is worse than death to the victim is not something that either you or I can determine for them. We can say that we think death would be worse, but if they feel otherwise then that's how they feel.

No one who commits suicide are in their right mind. Committing suicide is not rational, having been raped or not.

As I say on occasion, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

There you may be wrong. For example, take the example of a person who is rendered paralyzed from the neck down due to an attack, with a rape included or not. That person may rationally judge life not worth living at that point, and may prefer to die instead. Further, elderly, infirm people living in constant pain may also feel that they have no better course of action than to be relieved of said pain.

We cannot necessarily decide for them that objectively, living would be better. It's not an objective analysis.

This.

It's good that as a counsellor Collector focuses on the potential rehabilitated future, not the present feelings, but to say that it is always irrational to commit suicide seems a wild claim to me. In fact, this is why I couldn't be a counsellor. I'd probably tell half my patients that if they really want to top themselves, they should just do it.

[charlou]

There is no real wiggle room, though, in raping an infant.

[Coito ergo sum]

However, whether something is worse than death to the victim is not something that either you or I can determine for them. We can say that we think death would be worse, but if they feel otherwise then that's how they feel.

No, actually I can.

Therapists practice a technique called "reframing." Look it up.

Reframing doesn't mean you're "right" about your different opinion as to what is worse. Reframing can occur, also, without the help of a therapist.

And, you may wan to take a refresher course, because reframing is not supposed to be where the therapist DETERMINES a patient's feelings for them.

There you may be wrong. For example, take the example of a person who is rendered paralyzed from the neck down due to an attack, with a rape included or not. That person may rationally judge life not worth living at that point, and may prefer to die instead. Further, elderly, infirm people living in constant pain may also feel that they have no better course of action than to be relieved of said pain.

We cannot necessarily decide for them that objectively, living would be better. It's not an objective analysis.

Again, yes we can. Living is always better than death.

In your opinion. However, that is not objectively true. It's a matter of opinion, and in my opinion there are many examples of instances where dying would be preferable. For example, I would rather get a bullet in my head at 9am to avoid being drawn and quartered at noon. I.e., death may be preferable to a worse death later. I.e. death is preferable to a temporary life that may be extremely horrid or may end in a more painful way.

That's the whole point behind assisted suicide. A person determines that life is NOT under given circumstances, better than death.

As an atheist who doesn't believe in an afterlife, and that "this is it," then choosing to die would be pretty stupid wouldn't it?

That depends on the circumstances. I would prefer to live, all things being equal. But, things are almost never equal. As I said, if I am going to live in constant extreme pain, shitting the bed and having to be nursed 24-7, because I have no movement below the neck -- I may well think the nothingness of death to be preferable to agony. Death didn't bother me at all for the first 13 billion years of the universe. Whether I tough it out for another few ticks of the clock is not going to matter in the long run, and may well be worse than ending it.

However, the point is not whether living or dying under given circumstances if rationally a better course of action. Whether someone is an awful person can be judged based on an assessment of their character. And, there may be guys, for example, who killed hundreds of people in wartime and we don't judge them to be awful, but someone in his basement lusting after one year olds, but not yet having acted on it, may well be judged as worse than the killer of 100s, due to the circumstances and their mindset. Who should I judge less favorably, the pilot of the Enola Gay, or a child rapist? I choose the latter to direct my scorn.

Sounds like you need to think about less where "to direct your scorn" and more be a little more positive.

Non sequitur.

[Coito ergo sum]

\

To imply, as you did, that someone who is in agony and wishes to die and is given that wish would be better off being fucked ragged by a gang of strangers because death is worse than rape period, suggests to me that you are the one who should be nowhere near rape victims or most of humanity. Unless, that is, you ran the words of your supposed occupation together and are looking for a reduced sentence.

Huh? You think I implied that? You high?

So, in that case, death could be preferable to rape. Yes?

[Coito ergo sum]

Name a case where being raped is worse than being murdered.

How about life in prison being your cellmate's bitch?

Or a 2.1 meter tall claustrophobic person who is also afraid of the dark being sentence to life in prison in a cell 2 meters cube cell with no light?

[Collector1337]

Rape is clearly not as bad as death/murder since you'd still be living after the rape. Just saying.

In a purely academic sense, yes.

However, from the perspective of the victim, there are clearly things that happen in life that can effect them in a way that is worse than death. The evidence of that is that sometimes a rape or abuse victim will commit suicide, which means that to them they preferred to die rather than to live with the effects of issue.

And, if a person did that to my daughter, I would certainly kill them if I had the chance, and I would want to do so whether I died or got the death penalty, because some things, to me, are worse than death.

Obviously psychology and mental health are not your strong suits.

No one who commits suicide are in their right mind. Committing suicide is not rational, having been raped or not.

As I say on occasion, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

But what if it's not temporary? Surely there are some victims who never get over past traumas?

It's all in your mind. If you feel you can't get over it, then you won't. If you feel you can get over it, then you will.

It depends on your definition of "get over" I suppose.

Typically, for mental disorders it depends on one thing. How functional are you? Can you live independently and support yourself if you're an adult, or do what is expected of you at your individual developmental level?

People can't "get over" shit all the time. That doesn't mean it keeps them from functioning and living their life. Everyone has shitty things that happen in their life. That's how life works.

[Collector1337]

In fact, this is why I couldn't be a counsellor. I'd probably tell half my patients that if they really want to top themselves, they should just do it.

No shit.

It's specifically my job to NOT do that.

[pErvinalia]

Rape is clearly not as bad as death/murder since you'd still be living after the rape. Just saying.

In a purely academic sense, yes.

However, from the perspective of the victim, there are clearly things that happen in life that can effect them in a way that is worse than death. The evidence of that is that sometimes a rape or abuse victim will commit suicide, which means that to them they preferred to die rather than to live with the effects of issue.

And, if a person did that to my daughter, I would certainly kill them if I had the chance, and I would want to do so whether I died or got the death penalty, because some things, to me, are worse than death.

Obviously psychology and mental health are not your strong suits.

No one who commits suicide are in their right mind. Committing suicide is not rational, having been raped or not.

As I say on occasion, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

But what if it's not temporary? Surely there are some victims who never get over past traumas?

It's all in your mind. If you feel you can't get over it, then you won't. If you feel you can get over it, then you will.

It depends on your definition of "get over" I suppose.

Typically, for mental disorders it depends on one thing. How functional are you? Can you live independently and support yourself if you're an adult, or do what is expected of you at your individual developmental level?

People can't "get over" shit all the time. That doesn't mean it keeps them from functioning and living their life. Everyone has shitty things that happen in their life. That's how life works.

I know. But there's surely some rape victims who are crippled (perhaps physically as well as mentally) to the point of not being able to function satisfactorily any more? As a counsellor, I'd certainly expect you to focus on the positives and potential rehabilitation benefits, but the reality is there must be some people who can't, for whatever reason, be helped, and whose lives are miserable. I really don't have a problem with people like that committing suicide (which isn't saying much, as I don't really have a problem with most people committing suicide). Why suffer on in life in pain (either mental and/or physical) if they don't have to?

[Collector1337]

Reframing doesn't mean you're "right" about your different opinion as to what is worse.

Huh? Who says it's about being "right?"

Reframing can occur, also, without the help of a therapist.

No shit.

And, you may wan to take a refresher course, because reframing is not supposed to be where the therapist DETERMINES a patient's feelings for them.

I don't "determine" anyone's feelings for them. I give little nudges in the right direction when I can though, if optimism isn't that particular individual's strong suit.

In your opinion. However, that is not objectively true. It's a matter of opinion, and in my opinion there are many examples of instances where dying would be preferable. For example, I would rather get a bullet in my head at 9am to avoid being drawn and quartered at noon. I.e., death may be preferable to a worse death later. I.e. death is preferable to a temporary life that may be extremely horrid or may end in a more painful way.

LOL, okay. So, are we talking about opinions or objectivity here?

Yes, I agree with you. I never meant to imply otherwise. A quick death is certainly better than a long one, no doubt about it.

That's the whole point behind assisted suicide. A person determines that life is NOT under given circumstances, better than death.

Yeah, I think that was Jack Kevorkian's argument in court. It didn't work out too well for him.

That depends on the circumstances. I would prefer to live, all things being equal. But, things are almost never equal. As I said, if I am going to live in constant extreme pain, shitting the bed and having to be nursed 24-7, because I have no movement below the neck -- I may well think the nothingness of death to be preferable to agony. Death didn't bother me at all for the first 13 billion years of the universe. Whether I tough it out for another few ticks of the clock is not going to matter in the long run, and may well be worse than ending it.

So, you agree such exceptions like that don't happen very often then?

Or, perhaps you're a captured spy with a suicide pill, who if captured, would surely be tortured for information until death, making the suicide pill a much better option not just for the spy, but for the safety of the country's information.

The thing is, most people don't end up as vegetables, or captured spies, or in prison for life. So usually suicide is just extreme thinking.

Non sequitur.

[pErvinalia]

Suicide is actually a really interesting (if kind of depressing) topic. I'm always wondering about where the line of rationality/irrationality lies in the case of suicide. I can't say that I've found a definitive answer. But I'm generally uncomfortable in the idea that suicide is necessarily irrational. But it's a hard line to draw when we talk from the context of atheism and often subsequently some sort of existentialism/nihilism.

Also interesting is why religions (some, anyway) tend to frown on suicide. I wonder why that specifically gets their panties in a twist?