Why are the WW2 vets angry at the Obama Admin?

[Seth]

RUMINT rampant. There were no guards,

There were and are guards, and they are guarding places which are traditionally open to the public.

and the fencing was nothing more than Park Police SOP.

No it wasn't.

If you want to gripe about a stunt, gripe about those congresspeople who decided to show up. Grandstanding twats.

Good for them. I'm glad they had the courage to face down the NPS.

The stress of this getting to you?

No, I'm pissed at Obama and I'm glad he's being petty and mean, it will destroy the democrat party for us.

The GOP is losing this thing big time. This is the fight the teabaggers have been waiting for for four years, and it may well be the beginning of their demise.

Sounds like sour grapes from a furloughed gummint employee to me.

I see it exactly the opposite way.

[Ian]

Of course you see it the opposite way, because you're prone to wishful thinking. Here are some facts: GOP defectors in the House are now at 20 and counting - more than enough votes to push through a clean budget (well, a CR for now) if only Boehner will allow it. Public opinion is strongly with the Democrats. Only 1 in 5 Independents are siding with the GOP on this. McCain is publicly wondering what the hell is happening with his party. Major banks (i.e the GOP's bed buddies) are already pushing for them to relent. Even Grovor Norquist is calling Ted Cruz a fuckup. And on the D side, they're completely united.

How is this so? Well, try thinking from the opposing perspective for once. Just for once, Seth, you can do it. What might happen if a Republican President had a Democratic House who refused to pass through a budget without an amendment stating that a national assault weapons ban had to go into effect, or that cut the DoD budget by 10%, or raised corporate tax rates by 10%? Might they be seen as the instigators of this, making unreasonable demands in exchange for doing their jobs? Not to worry though Seth: Democrats are not so batshit crazy as to actually try a stunt like that, unlike the GOP nowadays, and I don't see them going that insane anytime soon.

[Seth]

Of course you see it the opposite way, because you're prone to wishful thinking. Here are some facts: GOP defectors in the House are now at 20 and counting - more than enough votes to push through a clean budget (well, a CR for now) if only Boehner will allow it.

Here's hoping he doesn't till the dems come to the table.

Public opinion is strongly with the Democrats.

So Huffpo and CNN would have us believe. But they don't pay attention to "flyover country."

Only 1 in 5 Independents are siding with the GOP on this.

Sez who?

McCain is publicly wondering what the hell is happening with his party.

McCain? He's a fucking RINO turncoat.

Major banks (i.e the GOP's bed buddies) are already pushing for them to relent. Even Grovor Norquist is calling Ted Cruz a fuckup. And on the D side, they're completely united.

That's why we set things up this way, so that those fuckwits can't steamroll the rest of us.

How is this so? Well, try thinking from the opposing perspective for once. Just for once, Seth, you can do it. What might happen if a Republican President had a Democratic House who refused to pass through a budget without an amendment stating that a national assault weapons ban had to go into effect, or that cut the DoD budget by 10%, or raised corporate tax rates by 10%? Might they be seen as the instigators of this, making unreasonable demands in exchange for doing their jobs? Not to worry though Seth: Democrats are not so batshit crazy as to actually try a stunt like that, unlike the GOP nowadays, and I don't see them going that insane anytime soon.

Well, that's politics for you. Problem with your analysis is that 70 percent or more of the public hates Obamacare, and more will do so if it goes into action fully, when they lose their full-time pay, their health plan, their doctor and they are paying three times as much as they were for "insurance."

That's what the dems get for fucking around with us in passing Obamacare without the bipartisan support of the Republicans. Their arrogance is coming back to haunt them big time.

I guess we'll see in the coming days how good your intelligence analysis skills actually are.

[Ian]

70% or more, eh? No, disapproval is around the mid-50s... and about 15% of the "disapprove" people are upset that it's too conservative! They (including me) wanted a single-payer system. And if your point is that the House is just trying to carry out the will of the people, why didn't background checks go anywhere in the House? Public support for that was enormous. The House GOP doesn't give a wet shit about what the public wants.

I would hardly call this intelligence analysis, but I certainly don't mind predicting that Obamacare is not going to be defunded after all this is over. I also don't mind predicting that polls (and yes, they include the flyover states ffs) are going to remain against the GOP as far as blame for this goes.

[Warren Dew]

This shutdown is not a "slimdown".

With around 80% of federal employees still working and getting paid, it's certainly not a shutdown.

[JimC]

This shutdown is not a "slimdown".

With around 80% of federal employees still working and getting paid, it's certainly not a shutdown.

It's an afternoon nap for a fractious toddler of a country, after a big dummy spit...

[pErvinalia]

Link?

I saw a news story about a bunch of WWII vets, mostly in wheelchairs, refusing to stay out of the WWII Memorial despite it being roped off for the shutdown. They were there to visit the memorial and didn't give a whit about the shutdown, so they went in anyway.

Fucking A right they did! Escorted by several Republican congresspersons. One of them cut the yellow police tape and the other opened the barrier and politely told the NPS fuzz to go fuck themselves, and let the entire group of about 80 WWII veterans, who were flown there by an organization called Honor Flight that has hundreds of the remaining WWII veterans scheduled to visit their memorial on the National Mall, which is fucking NOT going to be closed by that fuckwad Obama out of spite, which is EXACTLY what he, personally, did when informed of the veterans visit, if the People have anything to say about it.

The NPS cops decided that it wasn't going to look good for them to be hauling 80 year old WWII veterans in wheelchairs off to jail just for visiting a PUBLIC memorial dedicated to their courage and honor on a PUBLIC open-space mall filled with PUBLIC memorials and monuments, NONE of which has ever been blockaded off during a "shutdown." The National Mall belongs to the People, and the Supreme Court has said that it is the quintessential First Amendment protected public forum for citizens to use to petition redress of grievances.

Fucking Obama CANNOT close it, it's not his to close, and I'm advocating a mass march on Washington to retake the National Mall for the People. Let the fucking park police try to arrest a million people going to enjoy THEIR park.

Assholes.

More importantly, Obama spent federal money (and continues to spend it) illegally by maintaining the blockade of the National Mall. It is hardly an "essential service" to keep paying overtime for extra park cops to try to fuck over citizens. Guess what? It's a FELONY to spend government money without an appropriation.

This means that if you want to go to your local National Park and walk right through the gate and enjoy YOUR land, since it's not a "life or safety" issue (but merely an administrative preference) the Park Police have no authority to prevent you from doing so in a peaceable fashion.

Time for some civil disobedience to show Obama that he's overstepped his authority egregiously and we're not going to take it any more. I think he's royally fucked the democrats for the mid-term elections by being petty and mean. Even citizens who happen to be democrat-inclined are pissed off by what Obama did to the veterans, and is threatening to do to the future pre-arranged visits from Honor Flight honorees.

You should shoot Obama. He sounds like a real cunt, innit?

[Coito ergo sum]

This shutdown isn't going to save the taxpayers any money at all.

That does seem to be the case. Funny how it's almost impossible for the government to save money, even when they furlough their employees and stop doing work.

[Coito ergo sum]

Obama ordered it, eh? No shit.

Yeah, cause he's mean to old people.

If Bush was President, wouldn't we credit him with the actions of his administration. I don't remember folks separating the President from the Executive Branch in the last administration. Remember when Bush tortured people in Abu-Ghraib? It was his fault due to the "shit flows from the top" theory of government -- it's top-down, and the administration sets the tone and the climate. Not anymore, I guess.

[Ian]

No, we really wouldn't jump to blame Bush. Conspiracy theories are stupid no matter which administration is in office. Quit the retroactive defensiveness.

[Coito ergo sum]

Don't tell me you're one of those guys who believes he takes too many vacations? He has taken squat compared to his predecessor: roughly 1/4 as much at the 4.5 year point, in fact.

Yes, Bush spent a lot of time at Crawford, Texas. That's where most of his "vacations" were spent. While at Crawford, Bush took part in his daily briefings and reviews and reviewed and signed documents on a daily basis. Most days, he worked from a conference room in a trailer at the staff compound for regular video conferences, both with other members of his administration and world leaders. Other times, he works secure telephones from his office in his house. Also, Bush regularly hosted foreign dignitaries at his ranch, which he sees as a valuable diplomatic tool. Bush's staff stayed on an 11-acre staff encampment set up to support him when he was in Crawford. The encampment was a cluster of double-wide mobile homes, adjacent to the president's 1,600-acre ranch, where a handful of traveling White House staffers, Secret Service agents and communications staffers both worked and slept during Bush's stays here. Most members of Bush's large staff of personal, military, security and press aides stayed in hotels nearby the ranch.

In other words, he wasn't on vacation in Crawford. He was doing the same stuff he would do from the White House. The same goes for Obama. Nowadays, the President can do much of his job on Air Force One, and can do much of his job from Camp David and Martha's Vineyard, etc.

That being said, I was never a fan of Bush hanging out in Crawford. I think that a President gets elected for four or eight years, and that during that short time the President, he ought not be seen as taking vacations. He should be able to dedicate 100% of his focus on the job for that time. That's what I liked about President Clinton. He didn't want vacations. He wanted to be in the White House.

I honestly wish he'd take more.

There, I can agree with you on that....

[Ian]

I honestly don't mind when a President takes a "working vacation", even when they do it a lot like the last one. I have little doubt that any of them spend much time relaxing and thinking about things outside of work; they're just not built that way.

The one thing that bugged me about Bush's Crawford place was that whenever he or someone else would go before the cameras there a sign was hanging on the wall behind the podium which read "The Western White House". Fuck me, I despised that.

[laklak]

There's really only one way forward here. Just fund the fucking thing and let the chips fall where they will. If it works then I'll admit the error of my ways, turn in my guns, replace all my incandescent bulbs with CFCs and become a vegan. If it doesn't, and it turns out to be the most unworkable and expensive boondoggle in U.S. history (which is my belief) then the opposition agrees to scrap it, require all citizens to own a gun, build more coal plants and feed the vegans to the resurgent polar bear population.

[Coito ergo sum]

I honestly don't mind when a President takes a "working vacation", even when they do it a lot like the last one. I have little doubt that any of them spend much time relaxing and thinking about things outside of work; they're just not built that way.

The one thing that bugged me about Bush's Crawford place was that whenever he or someone else would go before the cameras there a sign was hanging on the wall behind the podium which read "The Western White House". Fuck me, I despised that.

Roosevelt and Truman had their "Little White Houses." Not a big deal.

[Coito ergo sum]

There's really only one way forward here. Just fund the fucking thing and let the chips fall where they will. If it works then I'll admit the error of my ways, turn in my guns, replace all my incandescent bulbs with CFCs and become a vegan. If it doesn't, and it turns out to be the most unworkable and expensive boondoggle in U.S. history (which is my belief) then the opposition agrees to scrap it, require all citizens to own a gun, build more coal plants and feed the vegans to the resurgent polar bear population.

The problem with that is that if the latter happens, then the solution proposed will be: "Hey, the Republicans forced us into this half measure. What we should have done is single payer health care and complete nationalization of our healthcare. Only then will the true benefits of government run healthcare be realized."