A Case for Jury Nullification...

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Re: A Case for Jury Nullification...

Post by Seth » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:06 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
klr wrote:
JimC wrote:There was ample justification for chasing him down and restraining him, and if that involved a punch or two, fair enough.

But that is not unlimited license to beat someone to a pulp.
Indeed. Anything beyond that is just taking the law into one's own hands.
Yup. Which makes it appropriate for him to be tried. And the circumstances are such that I say that a jury should nullify the law in this particular circumstance because to subject him to prison would constitute a miscarriage of justice. That's the role of the jury to begin with, and it has every right to find him not guilty by nullification because their duty is to dispense justice, not be blindly bound to the letter of the law.
I don't know what "nullification" is, but you can't really allow vigilante justice, particularly in this situation where they chased him down and he wasn't posing an immediate threat to anyone. What the family did was wrong, but perhaps the judge could go easy on him in sentencing. That would seem like a more sensible legal action.
"Nullification" is a principle of law that says that a jury has the plenary right to find a defendant not guilty during secret deliberations, even when a defendant is clearly guilty of the crime. The purpose of a trial by a jury of one's peers is to administer justice, not merely to determine guilt or innocence. Jury nullification holds that a jury may judge the appropriateness of the application of a particular law in a particular case and may, in its sovereign and absolute judgment, choose to ignore the law and find the defendant not guilty regardless of the evidence of guilt. This power, which has existed as part of the jury process long before the US was formed, is intended to give a jury of citizens the ability to prevent miscarriages of justice that might be perpetrated by the government.

Examples of such injustices are rife in English history. We can look to Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn and the King's manufacture of evidence through torture and subornation of perjury as one of the classic examples of why and how the jury nullification practice came into law.

The whole point of requiring a "jury of one's peers" was to protect the defendant against kangaroo courts and stacked juries as well as government abuse by the courts. The only way to ensure that a jury of one's peers will be able to render a fair and impartial verdict is to make the jury deliberations absolutely secret and their verdict of innocence completely unrevokable and unassailable. While a guilty verdict may be overturned by a higher court or thrown out by the trial judge if it perpetrates a miscarriage of justice, a verdict of not guilty, under the double jeopardy rules, cannot be overturned.

Thus, jury nullification (which judges and DAs absolutely loathe and try to suborn and avoid...and falsely tell jurors they cannot do) is the final link in the chain of justice that helps to ensure that justice remains fair and impartial even when corruption would result in a wrongful verdict.

In this case, a naked pervert was caught masturbating outside the bedroom window of young girls. The father was naturally outraged and lost control of his temper because of the heinous and despicable nature of the crime and he beat the pervert up. It's wrong for him to do that and yes, it's a crime, but in this particular case, his actions are, in my view (and I hope in the view of a jury) understandable and forgivable as a slight overreaction in protection of his daughters. In other words, the pervert got what he had justly coming to him. Actually far less, as in the past he likely would have been killed on the spot by enraged parents.

Therefore, while the defendants actions were wrong and a criminal offense in the eyes of the law, his actions are entirely understandable and excusable and a jury may decide that turning him into a felon and depriving his family of his paycheck, his presence, and his protection would be more punishment that he deserves in the interests of justice, so the jury may decide in its sovereign judgment that the assault law as applied in this case would perpetrate an injustice and it may find him not guilty.
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Re: A Case for Jury Nullification...

Post by klr » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:30 pm

Seth wrote: ...

Therefore, while the defendants actions were wrong and a criminal offense in the eyes of the law, his actions are entirely understandable and excusable and a jury may decide that turning him into a felon and depriving his family of his paycheck, his presence, and his protection would be more punishment that he deserves in the interests of justice, so the jury may decide in its sovereign judgment that the assault law as applied in this case would perpetrate an injustice and it may find him not guilty.
Yes. A jury may decide. There is no guarantee as to what it might do. It could just as easily find him guilty as hell, and then it would be up to the judge to decide what sentence should apply. The convicted could of course choose to appeal the verdict and sentence, but in the opposite scenario, double jeopardy means he's home free.

AFAIK, a jury is under no obligation to explain or defend its decision. It is not accountable in any formal or systematic way. I have a fundamental problem with any system or process that relies not only on untrained but also unaccountable people to make key decisions with a complete lack of transparency.
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Re: A Case for Jury Nullification...

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:37 pm

Jury nullification really relates to the instructions a court gives to the the jury. Most of the time, the judge will instruct the jury that it must follow the law, and if it finds X, Y and Z, then it must conclude such and such. The jury charged with obeying the law. Jury nullification relates to a jury judging that the law should not be applied in a given case, or that the law is a bad idea, and finding the defendant not guilty despite the law.

It has little to do with kangaroo courts, because in that instance where they find a defendant has been railroaded, they are finding him not guilty because he's, well, not guilty.

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Re: A Case for Jury Nullification...

Post by Seth » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:47 pm

klr wrote:
Seth wrote: ...

Therefore, while the defendants actions were wrong and a criminal offense in the eyes of the law, his actions are entirely understandable and excusable and a jury may decide that turning him into a felon and depriving his family of his paycheck, his presence, and his protection would be more punishment that he deserves in the interests of justice, so the jury may decide in its sovereign judgment that the assault law as applied in this case would perpetrate an injustice and it may find him not guilty.
Yes. A jury may decide. There is no guarantee as to what it might do. It could just as easily find him guilty as hell, and then it would be up to the judge to decide what sentence should apply. The convicted could of course choose to appeal the verdict and sentence, but in the opposite scenario, double jeopardy means he's home free.
Correct.
AFAIK, a jury is under no obligation to explain or defend its decision.
Correct.
It is not accountable in any formal or systematic way.
Except in cases of jury tampering. So long as the jury itself makes the decision without being influenced by anything other than the evidence and their own knowledge and judgement, their reasoning for their verdict is absolutely privileged.
I have a fundamental problem with any system or process that relies not only on untrained but also unaccountable people to make key decisions with a complete lack of transparency.
Well, the way the system works there is a lot of oversight of a GUILTY verdict. There's a whole system of appeals that exists solely to ensure that a jury does not improperly CONVICT someone of a crime they did not commit and that their judgments were made without interference.

However, when it comes to a verdict of not guilty, to allow "transparency" or "oversight" of the jury is to insert the serious risk of judicial corruption, as is seen in other nations where judges can overrule a not guilty verdict and either declare guilt or require a new trial.

England has a long, long history of retrying defendants again and again until the prosecution (government) gets the verdict it wants, which is precisely why in the US we have a double-jeopardy law and a law that requires a trial by one's peers.
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Re: A Case for Jury Nullification...

Post by MrJonno » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:58 pm

Someone who is quick to use violence with 'bad' people is just as likely to use it on 'good' people. Possible there is a case for temporary insanity but I bet anything this guy has a history of violence (even if he hasn't been convicted of it)
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Re: A Case for Jury Nullification...

Post by mistermack » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:09 pm

Seth wrote: England has a long, long history of retrying defendants again and again until the prosecution (government) gets the verdict it wants, which is precisely why in the US we have a double-jeopardy law and a law that requires a trial by one's peers.
That's bollocks. I don't know where you get this shit. You're just making it up as you go along.
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Re: A Case for Jury Nullification...

Post by klr » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:14 pm

The solution to any systematic problem - whether real or perceived - is not to introduce some unpredictable and arbitrary element into the system.
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Re: A Case for Jury Nullification...

Post by Svartalf » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:26 pm

Like irrational jurors?
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Re: A Case for Jury Nullification...

Post by laklak » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:21 pm

I was excused from jury duty when asked by the prosecuting attorney if I could find a defendant guilty of marijuana possession. Guy had been caught with a minor amount of weed, under an ounce. I answered "no". Looking back I should have said "of course, the law is the law" or something similar, then hung the jury and given the poor guy a break. I doubt they'd have tried him again for a simple possession charge.

Judges in Florida will never tell the jury about nullification, they really don't want "The People" deciding which laws are good and which are shit. However, you have an absolute right, as a juror, to vote Not Guilty no matter what the evidence may show.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: A Case for Jury Nullification...

Post by JacksSmirkingRevenge » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:07 pm

mistermack wrote:
Seth wrote: England has a long, long history of retrying defendants again and again until the prosecution (government) gets the verdict it wants, which is precisely why in the US we have a double-jeopardy law and a law that requires a trial by one's peers.
That's bollocks. I don't know where you get this shit. You're just making it up as you go along.
It's sometimes done for serious crimes (murder, rape, etc.) in light of "new and compelling evidence".

I think this has been discussed somewhere on these fora before? :think:
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Re: A Case for Jury Nullification...

Post by Seth » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:29 am

mistermack wrote:
Seth wrote: England has a long, long history of retrying defendants again and again until the prosecution (government) gets the verdict it wants, which is precisely why in the US we have a double-jeopardy law and a law that requires a trial by one's peers.
That's bollocks. I don't know where you get this shit. You're just making it up as you go along.
No it's not. English monarchs did it all the time.
Various theories have been offered to explain the introduction of the double jeopardy principle into the common law. One theory postulates that it came from the Continent through canon law or through Roman law. Another theory suggests that the twelfth-century power struggle between Thomas a` Becket, Archbishop of Canterbury, and King Henry II, which ended in Henry’s retreating from his claim that the royal courts could punish clerics after they were convicted of a crime and stripped of their clerical status in an ecclesiastical court, led to the introduction of the principle. Still another theory claims that the protection against double jeopardy merely evolved over hundreds of years from Anglo–Saxon criminal procedure.

The scope of the common law’s protection against double jeopardy in the hundred years following the Norman Conquest in 1066 cannot be ascertained. The available evidence suggests that the earliest rulers paid little heed to questions of double jeopardy. For example, the Charter of Liberties issued by Henry I in 1101 did not contain a protection against double jeopardy, and in 1163, Henry II claimed he could try a cleric for murdering a knight despite the cleric’s acquittal of that offense in an ecclesiastical court.
Source
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: A Case for Jury Nullification...

Post by Collector1337 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:53 am

laklak wrote:I was excused from jury duty when asked by the prosecuting attorney if I could find a defendant guilty of marijuana possession. Guy had been caught with a minor amount of weed, under an ounce. I answered "no". Looking back I should have said "of course, the law is the law" or something similar, then hung the jury and given the poor guy a break. I doubt they'd have tried him again for a simple possession charge.

Judges in Florida will never tell the jury about nullification, they really don't want "The People" deciding which laws are good and which are shit. However, you have an absolute right, as a juror, to vote Not Guilty no matter what the evidence may show.
:tup:

Indeed. Play their game... just long enough to actually get them to get you off the bench and onto the field. Especially, if you know what the case is about already, as you seemed to have.

Then, when you trick their dumb asses to hopefully taking you, vote not guilty, regardless.
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Re: A Case for Jury Nullification...

Post by Seth » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:26 am

laklak wrote:I was excused from jury duty when asked by the prosecuting attorney if I could find a defendant guilty of marijuana possession. Guy had been caught with a minor amount of weed, under an ounce. I answered "no". Looking back I should have said "of course, the law is the law" or something similar, then hung the jury and given the poor guy a break. I doubt they'd have tried him again for a simple possession charge.

Judges in Florida will never tell the jury about nullification, they really don't want "The People" deciding which laws are good and which are shit. However, you have an absolute right, as a juror, to vote Not Guilty no matter what the evidence may show.
Sometimes they will actually arrest you for contempt of court if you fail to reveal your nullification sympathies during voir dire and then you reveal them in the jury room...which is supposed to be sacrosanct.

There are movements all over the US to change the law to REQUIRE judges to tell jurors about their right to nullify. It's called a "Fully-Informed Jury Amendment."
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: A Case for Jury Nullification...

Post by mistermack » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:44 am

JacksSmirkingRevenge wrote:
mistermack wrote:
Seth wrote: England has a long, long history of retrying defendants again and again until the prosecution (government) gets the verdict it wants, which is precisely why in the US we have a double-jeopardy law and a law that requires a trial by one's peers.
That's bollocks. I don't know where you get this shit. You're just making it up as you go along.
It's sometimes done for serious crimes (murder, rape, etc.) in light of "new and compelling evidence".

I think this has been discussed somewhere on these fora before? :think:
Yeh, that came in about TEN YEARS AGO, and was a good thing too.
I was pointing out the utter bollocks that Seth posted, which came straight out of his own imagination. As usual.
And I see now, he's had to go back nearly a thousand years, for some sort of quote.
If I'd posted that, I'd feel like a prize idiot. He seems to have no shame cells.
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Re: A Case for Jury Nullification...

Post by MrJonno » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:38 pm

I trust the average member of the public as much to decide someone fate in jury as I do in trusting them with a firearm, ie no trust at all.

The jury system is an abomination and has no place in a rational society
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