What is feminism? PZ rape thread derail

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Re: What is feminism? PZ rape thread derail

Post by Robert_S » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:14 pm

DaveDodo007 wrote:
Audley Strange wrote:
Robert_S wrote:
Audley Strange wrote: Well anything can be traced back to a patriarchal assumption if you assume the patriarchy theory of history, however to do so would be to admit that women benefited greatly from it in many ways that men did not. Which would refute the idea that it was a system to oppress women, when in fact it was a system that primarily exploited men since the assumption was that women at the time didn't count in any meaningful sense of the word.
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Re: What is feminism? PZ rape thread derail

Post by Svartalf » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:22 pm

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Re: What is feminism? PZ rape thread derail

Post by Audley Strange » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:23 pm

Robert_S wrote:
DaveDodo007 wrote:
Audley Strange wrote:
Robert_S wrote:
Audley Strange wrote: Well anything can be traced back to a patriarchal assumption if you assume the patriarchy theory of history, however to do so would be to admit that women benefited greatly from it in many ways that men did not. Which would refute the idea that it was a system to oppress women, when in fact it was a system that primarily exploited men since the assumption was that women at the time didn't count in any meaningful sense of the word.
Dude, I know I'm not perfect, but I have a feeling there's a grammar somewhere in possession of a bullet with your name on it.
Yes I was visited by the Office of The Holy Punctuation this morning. Jesus that was an ugly fucker.
Tfify.

The job is hard enough without people making sarky comments about my appearance, thanks you very much. :(
It was supposed to read "grammar Nazi somewhere.." I could swear I typed it, but they word disappeared or something. :dunno: Tricksy Nazises. :x
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

Post by Audley Strange » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:15 am

hadespussercats wrote:
Image
Just to clarify--
is that the sort of valentine that once might have been sent by "just a regular guy who hasn't really done anything wrong and just lives by the current norms of his culture without really thinking about those norms too deeply" ?

Because if that's what you're getting at, then, :clap: :clap: :clap:
Pretty raw, but right on target.[/quote]

Now you see if that is what LP was getting at, then yes potent and thought provoking stuff. However currently we have cultural norms where things like like "Kill all men" and "Boys are stupid throw rocks at them" are seen as jokes. Where rape of men or potential rape of men makes it into comedy shows. Where movies and games can indulge in entertaining but anonymous androcide without any complaint yet some pixelated bint in a tin bra causes causes outrage. Where women's magazines show similar covers to lad's mags, but somehow the lads mags need to be censored. Let's go back a bit. Let's go to the suffragists who were supposedly fighting for universal suffrage but still gave the white feathers of cowardice to young men who would not go to war. When male genital mutilation is normalised (yes I know both you and LP take a very different view, you're in the minority). The castration of men who cheat is seen as something laughable, yet if some guy shot his wife for doing the same he's a fucking monster. We live in a culture where if a man kills his wife, the consensus was he's probably a violent animal, if a woman kills a man, he probably deserved it for being a violent animal.

My mother has above her a lousy cunt of a woman who is ruining her 3 childrens lives. She doesn't discipline them, her house is filthy and she supplements her drug habits with prostitution. Her children hate living with her, absolutely hate it. Their father, who remarried, who works and who has often had to come with the police and kick in her door to get legal access to his children, has been fighting for nearly a decade to get his children out of that situation. Even the social services are on his side and yet time after time he has been denied the right to be the primary care giver for three children (one of which, the youngest is not actually his. Her adultry left her pregnant and he stuck by her.)

To dismiss all that as "Patriarchy hurts men too" is quite frankly idiotic.
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

Post by Cormac » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:26 am

Audley Strange wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:
Image
Just to clarify--
is that the sort of valentine that once might have been sent by "just a regular guy who hasn't really done anything wrong and just lives by the current norms of his culture without really thinking about those norms too deeply" ?

Because if that's what you're getting at, then, :clap: :clap: :clap:
Pretty raw, but right on target.
Now you see if that is what LP was getting at, then yes potent and thought provoking stuff. However currently we have cultural norms where things like like "Kill all men" and "Boys are stupid throw rocks at them" are seen as jokes. Where rape of men or potential rape of men makes it into comedy shows. Where movies and games can indulge in entertaining but anonymous androcide without any complaint yet some pixelated bint in a tin bra causes causes outrage. Where women's magazines show similar covers to lad's mags, but somehow the lads mags need to be censored. Let's go back a bit. Let's go to the suffragists who were supposedly fighting for universal suffrage but still gave the white feathers of cowardice to young men who would not go to war. When male genital mutilation is normalised (yes I know both you and LP take a very different view, you're in the minority). The castration of men who cheat is seen as something laughable, yet if some guy shot his wife for doing the same he's a fucking monster. We live in a culture where if a man kills his wife, the consensus was he's probably a violent animal, if a woman kills a man, he probably deserved it for being a violent animal.

My mother has above her a lousy cunt of a woman who is ruining her 3 childrens lives. She doesn't discipline them, her house is filthy and she supplements her drug habits with prostitution. Her children hate living with her, absolutely hate it. Their father, who remarried, who works and who has often had to come with the police and kick in her door to get legal access to his children, has been fighting for nearly a decade to get his children out of that situation. Even the social services are on his side and yet time after time he has been denied the right to be the primary care giver for three children (one of which, the youngest is not actually his. Her adultry left her pregnant and he stuck by her.)

To dismiss all that as "Patriarchy hurts men too" is quite frankly idiotic.[/quote]


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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

Post by Jason » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:25 pm

:roll:


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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

Post by DaveDodo007 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:03 pm

Audley Strange wrote:
Now you see if that is what LP was getting at, then yes potent and thought provoking stuff. However currently we have cultural norms where things like like "Kill all men" and "Boys are stupid throw rocks at them" are seen as jokes. Where rape of men or potential rape of men makes it into comedy shows. Where movies and games can indulge in entertaining but anonymous androcide without any complaint yet some pixelated bint in a tin bra causes causes outrage. Where women's magazines show similar covers to lad's mags, but somehow the lads mags need to be censored. Let's go back a bit. Let's go to the suffragists who were supposedly fighting for universal suffrage but still gave the white feathers of cowardice to young men who would not go to war. When male genital mutilation is normalised (yes I know both you and LP take a very different view, you're in the minority). The castration of men who cheat is seen as something laughable, yet if some guy shot his wife for doing the same he's a fucking monster. We live in a culture where if a man kills his wife, the consensus was he's probably a violent animal, if a woman kills a man, he probably deserved it for being a violent animal.

My mother has above her a lousy cunt of a woman who is ruining her 3 childrens lives. She doesn't discipline them, her house is filthy and she supplements her drug habits with prostitution. Her children hate living with her, absolutely hate it. Their father, who remarried, who works and who has often had to come with the police and kick in her door to get legal access to his children, has been fighting for nearly a decade to get his children out of that situation. Even the social services are on his side and yet time after time he has been denied the right to be the primary care giver for three children (one of which, the youngest is not actually his. Her adultry left her pregnant and he stuck by her.)

To dismiss all that as "Patriarchy hurts men too" is quite frankly idiotic.
Well as I was pointing out to Robert_S we can all show examples to support our world view. There are certain claims being made here by feminists, SJW and a lot of liberals. The claims are that there exists social constructs such as a 'Patriarchy', 'Privilege' and we live in a 'Rape Culture.' Now there is nothing wrong with making claims along as you are prepared to back them up with evidence (which certainly doesn't include anecdotal evidence.) Just making claims and expecting them to be accepted by fiat and even worst call people who don't agree with you misogynists, racist and rape enablers, well it should be obvious why this is counterproductive to your claims and just makes your opponents dig their heels in.

Now we do have a body that can examine these claims and they are social science departments, they are not as good as the physical science departments but they can produce some good studies and if their papers are properly peered review by departments across the political spectrum should hopefully weed out the left leaning bias of the social science departments. At the moment the terms above are very ill defined, I normally don't have much time for philosophy in general but they are good at defining terms, should make the 'sorting out the mess of my definitions' below well within their level of expertise.

Nobody has defined these terms to any degree so I'm just having a stab at it until the philosophers get their thinking caps on:

Patriarchy: There is still some residual sexism from a more misogynist age still embedded in all institutions and political structures, which can effect men too.

Privilege: White males experience life at the easiest setting which gets harder by the colour of your skin and even harder when gender is taken into account. Class for some reason plays no part in this.

Rape Culture: Because of the nature of the crime (sometimes down to just he said/she said) this happens to make getting convictions hard and well as being traumatizing for the victim, thus making a culture which rapist go virtually unpunished.

Shouldn't this be what social science be doing anyway and as pointed out above you can include political science, evolutionary biologists and even the more credible evolutionary psychologists. Including these other groups should be able to counter the left wing bias of the liberal arts academia, well these and peer review.
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

Post by Audley Strange » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:59 pm

DaveDodo007 wrote: Well as I was pointing out to Robert_S we can all show examples to support our world view. There are certain claims being made here by feminists, SJW and a lot of liberals. The claims are that there exists social constructs such as a 'Patriarchy', 'Privilege' and we live in a 'Rape Culture.' Now there is nothing wrong with making claims along as you are prepared to back them up with evidence (which certainly doesn't include anecdotal evidence.) Just making claims and expecting them to be accepted by fiat and even worst call people who don't agree with you misogynists, racist and rape enablers, well it should be obvious why this is counter-productive to your claims and just makes your opponents dig their heels in.

Actually I don't think anyone here has actually made these claims here Dave. If anything I think that some people think people like you and myself are exaggerating and that feminism itself is not the issue. I have to say that the examples I gave do not support my worldview, but rather that cultural critique is fucking easy if you go in with a specific bias in the first place.
DaveDodo007 wrote: Now we do have a body that can examine these claims and they are social science departments, they are not as good as the physical science departments but they can produce some good studies and if their papers are properly peered review by departments across the political spectrum should hopefully weed out the left leaning bias of the social science departments. At the moment the terms above are very ill defined, I normally don't have much time for philosophy in general but they are good at defining terms, should make the 'sorting out the mess of my definitions' below well within their level of expertise.

Nobody has defined these terms to any degree so I'm just having a stab at it until the philosophers get their thinking caps on:

Patriarchy: There is still some residual sexism from a more misogynist age still embedded in all institutions and political structures, which can effect men too.

Privilege: White males experience life at the easiest setting which gets harder by the colour of your skin and even harder when gender is taken into account. Class for some reason plays no part in this.

Rape Culture: Because of the nature of the crime (sometimes down to just he said/she said) this happens to make getting convictions hard and well as being traumatizing for the victim, thus making a culture which rapist go virtually unpunished.

Shouldn't this be what social science be doing anyway and as pointed out above you can include political science, evolutionary biologists and even the more credible evolutionary psychologists. Including these other groups should be able to counter the left wing bias of the liberal arts academia, well these and peer review.
But the first two terms have had specific and precise meanings for almost the entirety of Western Culture.

Patriarchy, before it became a conspiracy theory, was essentially the Roman Concept of Pater Familias. As such there is a lot of evidence to support the claim that Western Society was run on the basis of "Father knows best". Since the Roman empire ruled most of Europe for 1700 years, it would be insane to deny the influence of such especially in light of the worshup of Hebrew and Cosmic Patriarchs. However, my issue is the claim that it's goal or reason for being was to deliberately oppress women. So far I have seen little in the way of evidence (outside of the mad rantings of St Paul) that this was actually the case. If it was Oppression by omission sure, but that applied not only to women but almost everyone, children, younger sons, women, slaves, animals.

Privilege. Another part of the Roman legal framework Privus Lex, in which the Patriarch held all legal responsibilities because of the advantages granted to them as a full citizen. They were punished for the behaviours of their slaves and their wives and their children. The common meaning now, which is unfair advantage could apply to many things. I'm not sure the claim "white guys=easy mode" comes from anything but a position of another latin concept often misused, praeiudicium, prejudice.

Rape Culture. Pitcairn is a great example of a Rape Culture. Prisons also, Islam certainly. A Culture in which rape is normalised, not just rape of women, but of men, of children.

Now before anyone says "well words change over time". I agree, however to claim specific technical definitions of such words which have strongly and emotively charged "rape enabler" "misogynist" from a group who claim that words are one way in which oppression can happen without that group taking responsibility themselves for being more cautious about the language they use is a joke.

I also think there is amongst many people the idea that "Patriarchy" will be cured by "Feminism" which to me is the same binary nonsense as God will defeat the devil and bring heaven on earth if we all stop sinning and the proletariat will all live in utopia if they are educated and rise up against the bourgeois. I think (actually even though I give social sciences a hard time) that much of Social science has been involved in dismissing a lot of these ridiculous myths even though many within it have been engineering them.
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

Post by epepke » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:46 pm

DaveDodo007 wrote:Now we do have a body that can examine these claims and they are social science departments, they are not as good as the physical science departments but they can produce some good studies and if their papers are properly peered review by departments across the political spectrum should hopefully weed out the left leaning bias of the social science departments. At the moment the terms above are very ill defined, I normally don't have much time for philosophy in general but they are good at defining terms, should make the 'sorting out the mess of my definitions' below well within their level of expertise
They have, in two of those cases. Trouble is, nobody noticed. See, the terms were pretty well defined back in the late 1970s.

"Patriarchy" referred to the feminist theory, starting with a sort of weird interpretation of Engels, that oppression based on sex was the first and is the most basic form of oppression, and everything else (racial oppression, classes, etc.) was secondary and derivative. It's always seemed to me pretty self-serving for white people, a bit like, "oh, so some of your relatives got lynched? Well, it's all just a reflection of the horrors that upper middle-class white women have to deal with when they are whistled at by construction workers. Oh the humanity!" (This is not really an exaggeration. Read Susan Brownmiller on Emmet Till and the Scottsboro case some time. Or don't. It isn't very pleasant.)

"Rape culture" referred to the feminist theory that rape is normal heterosexual relating as the culture defines it. Now, this has often been described as the idea that all sex is rape, and of course one can find proponents of this idea. However, that really isn't it. It's the idea that rape is normal and consensual sex isn't; it's something to be enforced, doubtless by some feminizing influence. This quite resembles what John Gordon called the "Montagu Doctrine" after Ashley Montagu, and of course it's just Victorian sexism rebranded.

Social studies people have dealt with these ideas, long ago, with the general result, of course, that they are just so much pablum down the bib. The words didn't go away, though, because they are useful as spitting terms. They don't really mean anything any more, except that they give some sort of general impression that whatever it is that's bad, it's because of men, who like to go around raping a lot. There's no point in listening to people who

"Privilege," however, is somewhat semantic and kind of important. Taken seriously, it's been dealt with a lot, at least back to Nietzsche. It's very much an attempt to frame things according to ressentiment and slave morality. Let's say there's group A and group B, and because of some active effort, group B usually gets the crap. You can always frame it in two ways:

1) Group B is discriminated against, or their rights are being violated.
2) Group A has privilege.

Number 1 is, I think, the mentally healthy one. Most people seem to agree, which is why we talk about civil rights rather than civil privileges. It embodies the idea of making the world better by bringing the underdogs up rather than knocking people down.

The popularity of the "privilege" concept in feminism might have to do with the numbers involved. It always struck many people as odd to say that women were a minority group, because there are plenty of women. There's some pretty interesting verbal sleight of hand going on. You might notice that working class men do not appear in feminist demonology, except as the occasional thug. The desired impression is more along the lines of Marxist rhetoric, huge masses of women oppressed by male privilege painted as going to the executive washroom to brag about their rapes. (The washroom bit is an actual example, from a panel of women who wrote Women Respond to the Men's Movement on the Phil Donahue show back in the 1980s). Of course, the mud is supposed to stick on all men, which is why working class men do not appear. (Is there such a thing as an executive washroom any more?)

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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

Post by Boyle » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:27 pm

epepke wrote:
DaveDodo007 wrote:Now we do have a body that can examine these claims and they are social science departments, they are not as good as the physical science departments but they can produce some good studies and if their papers are properly peered review by departments across the political spectrum should hopefully weed out the left leaning bias of the social science departments. At the moment the terms above are very ill defined, I normally don't have much time for philosophy in general but they are good at defining terms, should make the 'sorting out the mess of my definitions' below well within their level of expertise
They have, in two of those cases. Trouble is, nobody noticed. See, the terms were pretty well defined back in the late 1970s.

"Patriarchy" referred to the feminist theory, starting with a sort of weird interpretation of Engels, that oppression based on sex was the first and is the most basic form of oppression, and everything else (racial oppression, classes, etc.) was secondary and derivative. It's always seemed to me pretty self-serving for white people, a bit like, "oh, so some of your relatives got lynched? Well, it's all just a reflection of the horrors that upper middle-class white women have to deal with when they are whistled at by construction workers. Oh the humanity!" (This is not really an exaggeration. Read Susan Brownmiller on Emmet Till and the Scottsboro case some time. Or don't. It isn't very pleasant.)
Definitely. At this point the word I've seen around the bend in a few more diverse feminist camps is Kyriarchy. It's a pretty broad term, though I do like it more due to that. Another thing I've read is that black feminists felt snubbed, being that feminism was dominated by middle-class white women. I haven't read Brownmiller firsthand, only criticisms of her and they are not favorable towards her, to put it mildly.
"Rape culture" referred to the feminist theory that rape is normal heterosexual relating as the culture defines it. Now, this has often been described as the idea that all sex is rape, and of course one can find proponents of this idea. However, that really isn't it. It's the idea that rape is normal and consensual sex isn't; it's something to be enforced, doubtless by some feminizing influence. This quite resembles what John Gordon called the "Montagu Doctrine" after Ashley Montagu, and of course it's just Victorian sexism rebranded.
I know you've been around a lot longer than I, and so I gotta ask from where you got that definition for rape culture. To my understanding, a rape culture would be a culture in which rape and sexual assault are normalized, trivialized or excused. I've never seen, nor heard, rape culture defined with with a clause meaning that consensual sex is not normal.

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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

Post by Cormac » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:30 am

Boyle wrote:
epepke wrote:
DaveDodo007 wrote:Now we do have a body that can examine these claims and they are social science departments, they are not as good as the physical science departments but they can produce some good studies and if their papers are properly peered review by departments across the political spectrum should hopefully weed out the left leaning bias of the social science departments. At the moment the terms above are very ill defined, I normally don't have much time for philosophy in general but they are good at defining terms, should make the 'sorting out the mess of my definitions' below well within their level of expertise
They have, in two of those cases. Trouble is, nobody noticed. See, the terms were pretty well defined back in the late 1970s.

"Patriarchy" referred to the feminist theory, starting with a sort of weird interpretation of Engels, that oppression based on sex was the first and is the most basic form of oppression, and everything else (racial oppression, classes, etc.) was secondary and derivative. It's always seemed to me pretty self-serving for white people, a bit like, "oh, so some of your relatives got lynched? Well, it's all just a reflection of the horrors that upper middle-class white women have to deal with when they are whistled at by construction workers. Oh the humanity!" (This is not really an exaggeration. Read Susan Brownmiller on Emmet Till and the Scottsboro case some time. Or don't. It isn't very pleasant.)
Definitely. At this point the word I've seen around the bend in a few more diverse feminist camps is Kyriarchy. It's a pretty broad term, though I do like it more due to that. Another thing I've read is that black feminists felt snubbed, being that feminism was dominated by middle-class white women. I haven't read Brownmiller firsthand, only criticisms of her and they are not favorable towards her, to put it mildly.
"Rape culture" referred to the feminist theory that rape is normal heterosexual relating as the culture defines it. Now, this has often been described as the idea that all sex is rape, and of course one can find proponents of this idea. However, that really isn't it. It's the idea that rape is normal and consensual sex isn't; it's something to be enforced, doubtless by some feminizing influence. This quite resembles what John Gordon called the "Montagu Doctrine" after Ashley Montagu, and of course it's just Victorian sexism rebranded.
I know you've been around a lot longer than I, and so I gotta ask from where you got that definition for rape culture. To my understanding, a rape culture would be a culture in which rape and sexual assault are normalized, trivialized or excused. I've never seen, nor heard, rape culture defined with with a clause meaning that consensual sex is not normal.
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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

Post by Jason » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:42 am

Could you blathering cunts kindly fuck off to the 'what is feminism thread', or whatever the fuck the derail from this thread was called?

TYVM.

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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

Post by epepke » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:42 am

Boyle wrote:Definitely. At this point the word I've seen around the bend in a few more diverse feminist camps is Kyriarchy. It's a pretty broad term, though I do like it more due to that. Another thing I've read is that black feminists felt snubbed, being that feminism was dominated by middle-class white women. I haven't read Brownmiller firsthand, only criticisms of her and they are not favorable towards her, to put it mildly.
Yah. Midge Decter wrote an interesting essay about this called "The Liberated Woman." It was pretty early in so-called "second wave" feminism, when it was still quite reasonable, but it resonated a great deal in the years to come.
I know you've been around a lot longer than I, and so I gotta ask from where you got that definition for rape culture. To my understanding, a rape culture would be a culture in which rape and sexual assault are normalized, trivialized or excused. I've never seen, nor heard, rape culture defined with with a clause meaning that consensual sex is not normal.
I honestly can't remember. Back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, I read at least 400 books by feminism, trying to come up with a gestalt of what feminism actually was. It was many, many passages from a fair number of feminist theoreticians which converged on this idea, that anything good about heterosex came from women, and that men's natural state and state under a patriarchal culture. I can find passages, but I don't do that any more because there is no point. When I do, people jump on me and then the incessant ranting of "you're painting feminists with a broad brush" rapidly makes any further discussion possible. It's a difficult problem to solve, as I only ever write in public, for another reason that I'll only go into if asked, but it's a bit like what PZ Myers is doing now. Maybe if you buy me a beer some day, but it has to be one with a high alcohol content.

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Re: PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

Post by DaveDodo007 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:26 pm

Făkünamę wrote:Could you blathering cunts kindly fuck off to the 'what is feminism thread', or whatever the fuck the derail from this thread was called?

TYVM.
Yeah sorry about that, somehow the derail thread got derailed back here. Hopefully the mods will move it back.
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Re: What is feminism? PZ rape thread derail

Post by DaveDodo007 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:05 pm

Suzanne Moore has another article up in the Guardian and this time I didn't leave a comment there because it is just clickbait along with their usual attacks on atheists and Richard Dawkins. If you wish to read the drivel, here's a link:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... r-svyatski

I'm not really interested in the article itself just the fact that the article exists. In every act of oppression throughout history the very first thing you did was remove the voice of the oppressed and then you used any media you had to demonize them. Open any book or watch any documentary on some oppressed people and you would see it started in the media (communication) first with selective use of propaganda. So how come we can't shut the feminists up, seriously you can't turn on the TV, open a paper, go on the Internet or radio without hearing about how hard women have it at some point in the day. Patriarchy, Privilege, Rape culture. Fuck we even had a loon on Newsnight saying "men are raised to hate women" WTFF with out being challenged or asked for evidence. Yeah I'm exaggerating but our we 'privilege patriarchs' so bad at oppressing feminists and ethnic minorities that we can't even get the Oppression 101 right.
Last edited by DaveDodo007 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We should be MOST skeptical of ideas we like because we are sufficiently skeptical of ideas that we don't like. Penn Jillette.

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