What is feminism? PZ rape thread derail

[Robert_S]

Well feel free to show where I said being an atheist excludes you from also being a skeptic, anti-theist, secular and you may have a point but since I didn't then I don't know what you are going on about. Atheism is still just a lack of belief in god/s.

I never said they were mutually exclusive, I said that by your reasoning, they shouldn't be tied to atheism proper.

The stupid concepts I pointed out are stupid concepts and are just used the quell dissent and deny different opinions and is used to promote affirmative action which is both racist and sexist.

[/quote]

Knives are used to kill people. Does that mean we should go around saying knives are stupid just because they have been shown to have a capacity for being abused?

Affirmative action is racist and sexist? If it weren't for existing, blatant and subtle racism and sexism, there would never have been a real or perceived need for affirmative action.

[Robert_S]

Teh feminizts are going to take over and enslave us!!1!

I do become worried when the curtaining of free speech is advocated, the great thing about the atheist online 'community' was the free expression of ideas. What I see now is bannings and censorship on certain sites and blogs and events for having a dissenting opinion. The 'us and them' mentality along with the demonization of different opinions. The use of silencing accusations such as 'misogynist', 'rape apologist', 'mansplaining', 'privilege' etc, 'troll' for non troll comments. All of these have become common since feminism have moved into the once thriving atheist 'movement.' Atheists behaving like creationist may not disturb you but it does cause concern to me.

I certainly don't like the Apelusters or most of the Freethought Bloggers that I have read. I don't feel part of this "skeptic community" or whatever it is that these people are always talking about. I know quite a lot of feminist or feministy people via my social activism, and most of them seem pretty reasonable. There are some annoying traits, but to be honest, a lot of those traits are common amongst the far left, and they extend across domains. What happens in Europe? All this A+ and FtB shit seems to be centred around US conferences. I don't even go to conferences on this stuff, let alone US conferences. Is European skepticism all "rapey" too?

Elevatorgate took place in Ireland IIRC.

[pErvinalia]

Irish. They are always drunk (therefore rapey).

[Coito ergo sum]

How about you both put each other on fucking ignore and stop shitting up every thread in the bastard forum with your incessant cunting bickering

Word.

You're complaining about people shitting up a derail thread?

The thread was derailed into a NEW SUBJECTt: What is Feminism.

You're smart enough to get that so stop acting thick.

Fuck off.

My posts were on point with a topic of discussion within this thread. If you think the issue of the "free speech paradise" etc. is off the topic, then why don't you address those that were already discussing it? Why is it suddenly a problem with my comment?

[Robert_S]

You're complaining about people shitting up a derail thread?

The thread was derailed into a NEW SUBJECTt: What is Feminism.

You're smart enough to get that so stop acting thick.

Fuck off.

My posts were on point with a topic of discussion within this thread. If you think the issue of the "free speech paradise" etc. is off the topic, then why don't you address those that were already discussing it? Why is it suddenly a problem with my comment?

You're the one conceded you two were shitting up a derail thread.

It's not your comments as such, nor rEv's. But the two of you together sometimes:

[hadespussercats]

I don't want a free speech paradise at all. I think it is juvenile. But a lot of people here do, and then whinge when they get stuffed with offensive opinions. You get what you pay for.

There are a limited number of people on this site who complain about our free speech rule.

We might disagree sharply with an expressed opinion, but that is entirely consistent with the rule.

Wanting them banned is different from disagreeing with their opinion.

Very few people have ever called for someone to be banned for expressing an unpopular opinion.

Is that true? Feels like it comes up a lot.

[Robert_S]

"Patriarchy" is not a stupid concept. It can be used stupidly, but it is a legitimate concept. I've said elsewhere that I prefer it be used as in adjective form when talking about the remnants of it in most of the west.

Yeah, this is a good point. Using patriarchy as a noun is ridiculous, and I don't really recall seeing it used like that outside of the A+/FtB brand of nuttery (although, I don't attentively dissect every feminist post/article I come across, so I could be mistaken).

It's common among certain brands of feminism. "Smash the Patriarchy" is meme.

Thing is: things like harsher sentencing for men than women for the same crime, higher rates of homelessness for men, male victims of domestic violence being treated with contempt, male claims of sexual harassment by women not being taken seriously, women being seen as helpless victims by default in any unfortunate situation... hell I'd wager at least 90% of the disadvantages against men can be traced back to patriarchal values and assumptions.

[Pappa]

"Patriarchy" is not a stupid concept. It can be used stupidly, but it is a legitimate concept. I've said elsewhere that I prefer it be used as in adjective form when talking about the remnants of it in most of the west.

Yeah, this is a good point. Using patriarchy as a noun is ridiculous, and I don't really recall seeing it used like that outside of the A+/FtB brand of nuttery (although, I don't attentively dissect every feminist post/article I come across, so I could be mistaken).

I don't think it's uncommon for words with the suffix "-archy" to be used as nouns. "The oligarchy" would make perfect sense used in a similar context.

In all the online dictionaries I just checked, patriarchy is listed as a noun.

[Cormac]

How about you both put each other on fucking ignore and stop shitting up every thread in the bastard forum with your incessant cunting bickering

Word.

Thirded. You both need to stop chewing each others' ankles and antagonising. Or get married.

Oooh. A Ratz day out. The ladies will enjoy the fashion, and the gents can drink pints and smoke ceegars...

[Cormac]

I don't want a free speech paradise at all. I think it is juvenile. But a lot of people here do, and then whinge when they get stuffed with offensive opinions. You get what you pay for.

There are a limited number of people on this site who complain about our free speech rule.

We might disagree sharply with an expressed opinion, but that is entirely consistent with the rule.

Wanting them banned is different from disagreeing with their opinion.

Very few people have ever called for someone to be banned for expressing an unpopular opinion.

Is that true? Feels like it comes up a lot.

Seems to me that the same people make that call from time to time, but I don't think it is a general thing. Perhaps I am wrong

I'd certainly oppose it.

[Audley Strange]

wevs.

I was agreeing with the mischaracterisation, not the comment, I assume you did mean it sarcastically from that response.

I can certainly sympathise with it. After all the assumption is that being treated as an equal human being is something that should have been automatic, not something "generously" handed over. That in itself seems patronising. I can understand why one would be angry about that and I understand why the "ungrateful bitches" retort might seem like the sort of projection that those in power might have after handing over that which should have been automatic.

Beyond that though, beyond voting rights and legal equality, what is left but cultural critique? Now I am saying the women's movement is far from finished when it is clear that being treated as an human being with voting rights and legal equality are still not done. I'm behind that. When it comes to cultural critique, some of it seems reasonable, some of it seems nitpicking and some of it seems nuts. Sadly Third Wave Feminism in a lot of cases is little more than cultural critique from a very small group of women usually with wildly different opinions, until the word has become more associated with that and a lot of it does seem to me to ignore everyone else's plight at the expense of some middle-class overly entitled women whining about their lack of privilege.

your initial comment was sarcastic? I'm sorry, I didn't catch that.

No, my initial comment was mocking the value of the current "third wave". Your reaction, though sarcastic, made a valuable point which I agree with.

[Audley Strange]

"Patriarchy" is not a stupid concept. It can be used stupidly, but it is a legitimate concept. I've said elsewhere that I prefer it be used as in adjective form when talking about the remnants of it in most of the west.

Yeah, this is a good point. Using patriarchy as a noun is ridiculous, and I don't really recall seeing it used like that outside of the A+/FtB brand of nuttery (although, I don't attentively dissect every feminist post/article I come across, so I could be mistaken).

It's common among certain brands of feminism. "Smash the Patriarchy" is meme.

Thing is: things like harsher sentencing for men than women for the same crime, higher rates of homelessness for men, male victims of domestic violence being treated with contempt, male claims of sexual harassment by women not being taken seriously, women being seen as helpless victims by default in any unfortunate situation... hell I'd wager at least 90% of the disadvantages against men can be traced back to patriarchal values and assumptions.

Well anything can be traced back to patriarchal assumption if you assume a patriarchy theory of history how ever to do so would to admit that women benefited greatly from it in many ways that men did not and refute the idea that it was a system to oppress women rather that it was a system that primarily exploited men since the assumption was women didn't count really.

[Robert_S]

Well anything can be traced back to patriarchal assumption if you assume a patriarchy theory of history how ever to do so would to admit that women benefited greatly from it in many ways that men did not and refute the idea that it was a system to oppress women rather that it was a system that primarily exploited men since the assumption was women didn't count really.

Dude, I know I'm not perfect, but I have a feeling there's a grammar somewhere in possession of a bullet with your name on it.

[Audley Strange]

Well anything can be traced back to patriarchal assumption if you assume a patriarchy theory of history how ever to do so would to admit that women benefited greatly from it in many ways that men did not and refute the idea that it was a system to oppress women rather that it was a system that primarily exploited men since the assumption was women didn't count really.

Dude, I know I'm not perfect, but I have a feeling there's a grammar somewhere in possession of a bullet with your name on it.

Yes I was visited by the Office of The Holy Punctuation this morning. Jesus that was an ugly fucker.

[DaveDodo007]

Well anything can be traced back to a patriarchal assumption if you assume the patriarchy theory of history, however to do so would be to admit that women benefited greatly from it in many ways that men did not. Which would refute the idea that it was a system to oppress women, when in fact it was a system that primarily exploited men since the assumption was that women at the time didn't count in any meaningful sense of the word.

Dude, I know I'm not perfect, but I have a feeling there's a grammar somewhere in possession of a bullet with your name on it.

Yes I was visited by the Office of The Holy Punctuation this morning. Jesus that was an ugly fucker.

Tfify.

The job is hard enough without people making sarky comments about my appearance, thanks you very much.