Fast Food Worker Strikes!

[pErvinalia]

Only if there weren't jobs that involved using their minds.

Plenty of college graduates would prefer an easy, menial job to one that required effort and mental energy, particularly if the pay is the same, and particularly if it's difficult for college graduates to get jobs -- which it is. Many would say -- at least I can make $30k easy.

Really? Why bother educating yourself to work a menial job? Most university graduates I know would much prefer to do work that involved the mind.

[Coito ergo sum]

Under CESonomics, everyone becomes a millionaire mowing everyone else's lawn.

I've not suggested everyone can be millionaires. But, there is a lot of room for comfort between minimum wage and millionaire. A surer way to prosperity is opportunity, not guaranteed "cost of living" increases (which according to the CPI is now about 1.2% per year).

Handwringing over whether minimum wage is $7.50 or $8.00 and hour is just window dressing. A McDonalds employee is better served by having opportunities to move up, not opportunities to stay in the same fry-slinging job for 40 years.

[Coito ergo sum]

Only if there weren't jobs that involved using their minds.

Plenty of college graduates would prefer an easy, menial job to one that required effort and mental energy, particularly if the pay is the same, and particularly if it's difficult for college graduates to get jobs -- which it is. Many would say -- at least I can make $30k easy.

Really? Why bother educating yourself to work a menial job? Most university graduates I know would much prefer to do work that involved the mind.

A job is better than no job. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/1 ... 96827.html

I don't know about "most" -- I just said "plenty."

[laklak]

I got tired of paying $40 a week to have mine mowed, and that's without any trimming. But I'm getting even more tired of mowing it myself, what a fucking mission.

Back in the day I'd have paid a kid 5 bucks. What's the world come to?

[Coito ergo sum]

I got tired of paying $40 a week to have mine mowed, and that's without any trimming. But I'm getting even more tired of mowing it myself, what a fucking mission.

Back in the day I'd have paid a kid 5 bucks. What's the world come to?

You can still find kids around to do it for less than the lawn services. The key I found is to search the googles for a guy who runs his own outfit and will take cash. My guy is very informal. I just leave the money on the patio, and he mows the yard. Never met him, actually. LOL.

[Sean Hayden]

You got a pole and some rope laklak?

[pErvinalia]

Only if there weren't jobs that involved using their minds.

Plenty of college graduates would prefer an easy, menial job to one that required effort and mental energy, particularly if the pay is the same, and particularly if it's difficult for college graduates to get jobs -- which it is. Many would say -- at least I can make $30k easy.

Really? Why bother educating yourself to work a menial job? Most university graduates I know would much prefer to do work that involved the mind.

A job is better than no job. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/1 ... 96827.html

But that wasn't your claim. Your claim was that they would prefer an easy menial job to one that required effort and mental energy.

I don't know about "most" -- I just said "plenty."

Maybe you know a lot of shallow people. Or perhaps you are toeing the conservative line that young people are mostly slackers.

[Coito ergo sum]

Only if there weren't jobs that involved using their minds.

Plenty of college graduates would prefer an easy, menial job to one that required effort and mental energy, particularly if the pay is the same, and particularly if it's difficult for college graduates to get jobs -- which it is. Many would say -- at least I can make $30k easy.

Really? Why bother educating yourself to work a menial job? Most university graduates I know would much prefer to do work that involved the mind.

A job is better than no job. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/1 ... 96827.html

But that wasn't your claim. Your claim was that they would prefer an easy menial job to one that required effort and mental energy.

I have more than one claim. One of my claims was that plenty, not "most" would prefer that menial job to one that required effort and mental energy IF that menial job paid the same.

I don't know about "most" -- I just said "plenty."

Maybe you know a lot of shallow people. Or perhaps you are toeing the conservative line that young people are mostly slackers.

It's a "conservative" line that young people are "mostly" slackers? Where do you get that? And, where did I say that?

The point is that a lot of college graduates aren't exactly big thinkers, or particularly qualified. Some of them stay home and sponge off others, even. Not most, but some. And, there are quite a few who manage to graduate college without a significant marketable skill.

[pErvinalia]

Plenty of college graduates would prefer an easy, menial job to one that required effort and mental energy, particularly if the pay is the same, and particularly if it's difficult for college graduates to get jobs -- which it is. Many would say -- at least I can make $30k easy.

Really? Why bother educating yourself to work a menial job? Most university graduates I know would much prefer to do work that involved the mind.

A job is better than no job. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/1 ... 96827.html

But that wasn't your claim. Your claim was that they would prefer an easy menial job to one that required effort and mental energy.

I have more than one claim. One of my claims was that plenty, not "most" would prefer that menial job to one that required effort and mental energy IF that menial job paid the same.

Actually, you only made one claim that I was responding to. So why did you post that huffpost article that was about youth unemployment? That's not an analogous situation to what we were talking about.

I don't know about "most" -- I just said "plenty."

Maybe you know a lot of shallow people. Or perhaps you are toeing the conservative line that young people are mostly slackers.

It's a "conservative" line that young people are "mostly" slackers? Where do you get that? And, where did I say that?

I'm just trying to work out why you would think that people who are interested in higher education would do that and then choose to work in a menial job instead of a mentally stimulating job. I've spent decades at universities studying and working, and I know of only one guy (a PhD) who chose to do a menial job when he was outwardly capable of doing more mentally interesting work (in his field). I suspect you don't know many, let alone "plenty", of graduates who would prefer to do menial work. The only other reason I can think that you would hold that belief is because of your conservative views. It gels nicely.

The point is that a lot of college graduates aren't exactly big thinkers, or particularly qualified. Some of them stay home and sponge off others, even. Not most, but some. And, there are quite a few who manage to graduate college without a significant marketable skill.

I'll grant that in the context of Arts graduates, you might be right. I've been involved with the sciences and engineering at my time at university, and I can promise you that those types don't want to work menial jobs.

[Audley Strange]

No fucker wants to work a menial job many will choose it because its all they can get, others for convenience as a means to an end, others won't. Nothing really to do with education other than the less you have the more likely you'll have less of a choice outside them.

[Coito ergo sum]

Really? Why bother educating yourself to work a menial job? Most university graduates I know would much prefer to do work that involved the mind.

A job is better than no job. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/1 ... 96827.html

But that wasn't your claim. Your claim was that they would prefer an easy menial job to one that required effort and mental energy.

I have more than one claim. One of my claims was that plenty, not "most" would prefer that menial job to one that required effort and mental energy IF that menial job paid the same.

Actually, you only made one claim that I was responding to. So why did you post that huffpost article that was about youth unemployment? That's not an analogous situation to what we were talking about.

What I wrote was this:

A job is better than no job. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/1 ... 96827.html

I don't know about "most" -- I just said "plenty."

The bolded bit was responsive directly to the issue of my claim about what plenty of college graduates would do. The huffpo article was an aside, which is tangentially relevant because it shows that there is a large supply of college graduates looking for work, and as such many will take what is available, particularly if its pay approaches the pay of the job they're really looking for. They might not take a $7.50/hr job because they're looking for something that pays $20. But, give them a chance to sling fries for $15, and those folks will enter that job market.

Savvy?

I don't know about "most" -- I just said "plenty."

Maybe you know a lot of shallow people. Or perhaps you are toeing the conservative line that young people are mostly slackers.

It's a "conservative" line that young people are "mostly" slackers? Where do you get that? And, where did I say that?

I'm just trying to work out why you would think that people who are interested in higher education would do that and then choose to work in a menial job instead of a mentally stimulating job. I've spent decades at universities studying and working, and I know of only one guy (a PhD) who chose to do a menial job when he was outwardly capable of doing more mentally interesting work (in his field). I suspect you don't know many, let alone "plenty", of graduates who would prefer to do menial work. The only other reason I can think that you would hold that belief is because of your conservative views. It gels nicely.

Oh, well you could have just asked me instead of making it about insulting me. But, people who are interested in higher education are also interested in getting paid, generally speaking. They want to make a living. And, if they see people earning close to their wages who have far less education, experience or whatever, then they tend to think that they are getting a raw deal. It would be like if lawyers started getting paid $30k per year. It's nice and intellectually stimulating to be a lawyer, but if you're only going to make $30k at it, then people will leave that field in droves in order to earn that money in a much less demanding fashion. That's the concept.

In other words, all else being equal, people will take low hanging fruit rather than climb up and down a ladder to get similar fruit from higher up on a tree. Easy money is better than hard money.

The people that you refer to doing much more mentally interesting work tend to get paid more than minimum wage, by far. If, however, PHDs started earning little more than minimum wage, you'd see a lot of them wondering what they're staying up nights working on. This is common sense, rEv. Generally speaking, f you can make $10,000 the easy way or the hard way, which way would you make it? If you could make it staying home and doing nothing, wouldn't you? All else being equal, that is.

I don't have many conservative views.

The point is that a lot of college graduates aren't exactly big thinkers, or particularly qualified. Some of them stay home and sponge off others, even. Not most, but some. And, there are quite a few who manage to graduate college without a significant marketable skill.

I'll grant that in the context of Arts graduates, you might be right. I've been involved with the sciences and engineering at my time at university, and I can promise you that those types don't want to work menial jobs.

Oh, I agree, they don't want to work menial jobs. And science and engineering folks tend to start out higher on the salary chain than other college graduates. The principle holds, though, if, say, a McDonald's fry slinger earned $50k and the starting salary for an Industrial Engineer was, say $55k, the Industrial Engineer would wonder why he's busting his ass in a difficult and demanding job when he can earn almost as much working 8 hours a day on an easy job. Plenty of folks would prefer to be home for dinner with their family than putting in late hours on the latest engineering project.

Most college graduates don't command $50k a year in the US. The average starting salary is about $40k, and that is even a deceptive figure with the "average" person actually starting in the range of $25 to $35k. Give the McDonald's burger flipper $30k and watch who starts applying for those jobs, particularly with half of all college graduates now lacking full time employment anyway, and most of them not working in any field related to their major areas of study.

This is not an insult to anyone. It's just common sense.

[Tero]

Plenty of college kids are in grad school, so the no brains job, part time, is fine for that situation.

My grad school paid me to teach. Not available in all fields.

[pErvinalia]

A job is better than no job. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/1 ... 96827.html

But that wasn't your claim. Your claim was that they would prefer an easy menial job to one that required effort and mental energy.

I have more than one claim. One of my claims was that plenty, not "most" would prefer that menial job to one that required effort and mental energy IF that menial job paid the same.

Actually, you only made one claim that I was responding to. So why did you post that huffpost article that was about youth unemployment? That's not an analogous situation to what we were talking about.

What I wrote was this:

A job is better than no job. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/1 ... 96827.html

I don't know about "most" -- I just said "plenty."

That's nice. But what I was replying to was this: "Plenty of college graduates would prefer an easy, menial job to one that required effort and mental energy". I'm not sure how you expect me to reply to something you said AFTER I replied to you.

The bolded bit was responsive directly to the issue of my claim about what plenty of college graduates would do. The huffpo article was an aside, which is tangentially relevant because it shows that there is a large supply of college graduates looking for work, and as such many will take what is available, particularly if its pay approaches the pay of the job they're really looking for. They might not take a $7.50/hr job because they're looking for something that pays $20. But, give them a chance to sling fries for $15, and those folks will enter that job market.

Savvy?

Of course I savvy. I made a similar point in rebuttal to an earlier suspect claim by you, a point you ignored. - http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 5#p1494717

I don't know about "most" -- I just said "plenty."

Maybe you know a lot of shallow people. Or perhaps you are toeing the conservative line that young people are mostly slackers.

It's a "conservative" line that young people are "mostly" slackers? Where do you get that? And, where did I say that?

I'm just trying to work out why you would think that people who are interested in higher education would do that and then choose to work in a menial job instead of a mentally stimulating job. I've spent decades at universities studying and working, and I know of only one guy (a PhD) who chose to do a menial job when he was outwardly capable of doing more mentally interesting work (in his field). I suspect you don't know many, let alone "plenty", of graduates who would prefer to do menial work. The only other reason I can think that you would hold that belief is because of your conservative views. It gels nicely.

Oh, well you could have just asked me instead of making it about insulting me.

If you were an honest debater and a reasonable person I would. But you are the type of person who kicks someone when they are down. You'll get no mercy from me.

But, people who are interested in higher education are also interested in getting paid, generally speaking. They want to make a living. And, if they see people earning close to their wages who have far less education, experience or whatever, then they tend to think that they are getting a raw deal. It would be like if lawyers started getting paid $30k per year. It's nice and intellectually stimulating to be a lawyer, but if you're only going to make $30k at it, then people will leave that field in droves in order to earn that money in a much less demanding fashion. That's the concept.

No, the concept is that you said that plenty of college graduates would prefer to do menial work than intellectually stimulating work, if the pay was the same. I say that's bullshit, and I have decades of experience in the university sector to feel comfortable in stating that. You, on the other hand, are a conservative, and one of the hobby horses of conservatives is whinging about the "youth of today" and how lazy they are. I'm just putting one and one together and getting two. If the correct equation is one and two equals three, then when you show reasoning for that, I'll concede.

In other words, all else being equal, people will take low hanging fruit rather than climb up and down a ladder to get similar fruit from higher up on a tree. Easy money is better than hard money.

As I said, perhaps you know a lot of shallow people. Virtually everyone I know (given I generally only associate with intelligent people) would prefer to use their mind than let it sit idle in some menial job.

The people that you refer to doing much more mentally interesting work tend to get paid more than minimum wage, by far. If, however, PHDs started earning little more than minimum wage, you'd see a lot of them wondering what they're staying up nights working on. This is common sense, rEv.

No it's not, it's baseless opinion. Nearly every research scientist I know could earn heaps more money driving an airconditioned truck in the mines. If it was all about money, they'd do that. But they don't.

Generally speaking, f you can make $10,000 the easy way or the hard way, which way would you make it?

It's not about "easy" and "hard". As an intelligent person, using your brain isn't "hard". It's about what's most rewarding or pleasurable. I and most people I know find using our minds much more rewarding and pleasurable than driving trucks.

If you could make it staying home and doing nothing, wouldn't you? All else being equal, that is.

Great hypothetical. That's not a reality and never will be. And I'd prefer to work part-time and earn that money than sit at home and do nothing. And I suspect that most people would too. This is typical conservative bollocks. Conservatives generally believe that money is the great incentiviser. Psychology, and real life, shows that above a minimum amount, it isn't. People have personal goals and enjoy personally rewarding experiences. Sitting on your arse all day isn't very rewarding for an intelligent person. (and I speak from experience over the last year).

The point is that a lot of college graduates aren't exactly big thinkers, or particularly qualified. Some of them stay home and sponge off others, even. Not most, but some. And, there are quite a few who manage to graduate college without a significant marketable skill.

I'll grant that in the context of Arts graduates, you might be right. I've been involved with the sciences and engineering at my time at university, and I can promise you that those types don't want to work menial jobs.

Oh, I agree, they don't want to work menial jobs. And science and engineering folks tend to start out higher on the salary chain than other college graduates. The principle holds, though, if, say, a McDonald's fry slinger earned $50k and the starting salary for an Industrial Engineer was, say $55k, the Industrial Engineer would wonder why he's busting his ass in a difficult and demanding job when he can earn almost as much working 8 hours a day on an easy job. Plenty of folks would prefer to be home for dinner with their family than putting in late hours on the latest engineering project.

So now you are changing the hours worked? Why? I'd love to get a look inside your head. I can't understand what's going on in there. Myself and virtually every intelligent person I know doesn't find using their mind as "hard". They find it stimulating and enjoyable.

Most college graduates don't command $50k a year in the US. The average starting salary is about $40k, and that is even a deceptive figure with the "average" person actually starting in the range of $25 to $35k. Give the McDonald's burger flipper $30k and watch who starts applying for those jobs, particularly with half of all college graduates now lacking full time employment anyway, and most of them not working in any field related to their major areas of study.

I've never actually worked in McDonalds or the like, but I have worked in restaurant kitchens, and I wonder if you have? They aren't actually very pleasant places to work. Perhaps it's a bit nicer in Maccas, I don't know.

[Coito ergo sum]

That's nice. But what I was replying to was this: "Plenty of college graduates would prefer an easy, menial job to one that required effort and mental energy". I'm not sure how you expect me to reply to something you said AFTER I replied to you.

I didn't do that. I said "plenty" of college graduates, and you responded that "most" of the college graduates that you know wouldn't take a menial job. I did not say "most" -- I said "plenty" and then I explained why. I added the Huffpo article as a tangential point, but it dovetails because such persons will take menial jobs and they are more likely to take them as the pay for them increases. They need money too. Similarly, if someone is offered (a) difficult, demanding job with lots of responsibility for $30k and (b) 40 hour a week no brainer job for $30k, it's fair to say that "plenty" of people, including college grads, would take (b) because it's low hanging fruit.

The bolded bit was responsive directly to the issue of my claim about what plenty of college graduates would do. The huffpo article was an aside, which is tangentially relevant because it shows that there is a large supply of college graduates looking for work, and as such many will take what is available, particularly if its pay approaches the pay of the job they're really looking for. They might not take a $7.50/hr job because they're looking for something that pays $20. But, give them a chance to sling fries for $15, and those folks will enter that job market.

Savvy?

Of course I savvy. I made a similar point in rebuttal to an earlier suspect claim by you, a point you ignored. - http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 5#p1494717

Well, good then we agree.

I don't know about "most" -- I just said "plenty."

Maybe you know a lot of shallow people. Or perhaps you are toeing the conservative line that young people are mostly slackers.

It's a "conservative" line that young people are "mostly" slackers? Where do you get that? And, where did I say that?

I'm just trying to work out why you would think that people who are interested in higher education would do that and then choose to work in a menial job instead of a mentally stimulating job. I've spent decades at universities studying and working, and I know of only one guy (a PhD) who chose to do a menial job when he was outwardly capable of doing more mentally interesting work (in his field). I suspect you don't know many, let alone "plenty", of graduates who would prefer to do menial work. The only other reason I can think that you would hold that belief is because of your conservative views. It gels nicely.

Oh, well you could have just asked me instead of making it about insulting me.[/quote]

If you were an honest debater and a reasonable person I would. But you are the type of person who kicks someone when they are down. You'll get no mercy from me.[/quote]

Mercy from you? Why would I need that? That's like asking for mercy from someone throwing a Nerf ball.

But, people who are interested in higher education are also interested in getting paid, generally speaking. They want to make a living. And, if they see people earning close to their wages who have far less education, experience or whatever, then they tend to think that they are getting a raw deal. It would be like if lawyers started getting paid $30k per year. It's nice and intellectually stimulating to be a lawyer, but if you're only going to make $30k at it, then people will leave that field in droves in order to earn that money in a much less demanding fashion. That's the concept.

No, the concept is that you said that plenty of college graduates would prefer to do menial work than intellectually stimulating work, if the pay was the same. I say that's bullshit, and I have decades of experience in the university sector to feel comfortable in stating that. You, on the other hand, are a conservative, and one of the hobby horses of conservatives is whinging about the "youth of today" and how lazy they are. I'm just putting one and one together and getting two. If the correct equation is one and two equals three, then when you show reasoning for that, I'll concede.

Well, you can call it bullshit all you want, and we can differ on that issue. I have decades of experience as well, and I know from whence I speak. I am not a conservative, nor would it matter if I was. I have not whinged of the "youth of today", nor do I think they are any lazier than youth of prior generations. So, whatever you're on about, it's nothing I've ever said. But, then again, you do prefer to tell people what they think rather than ask them.

If you honestly think that people tend to want to do harder jobs if they make the same money as easier jobs, and that is a result of your decades of experience in the university field, then so be it.

In other words, all else being equal, people will take low hanging fruit rather than climb up and down a ladder to get similar fruit from higher up on a tree. Easy money is better than hard money.

As I said, perhaps you know a lot of shallow people. Virtually everyone I know (given I generally only associate with intelligent people) would prefer to use their mind than let it sit idle in some menial job.

Of course they would. But, if you offer them an easy way to make $X and a more demanding way to make the same $X, then plenty of them will tend to want to pick the low hanging fruit. That's why when you raise the minimum wage too much, it draws overqualified people into the menial jobs, and thereby hurts the unskilled worker the most. It increases the competition they face because "plenty" of higher skilled people will eschew either doing or waiting for the more demanding position and they will take the easy money.

This has nothing at all to do with being "shallow." It has to do with doing what makes sense. People need money. They, of course, also want enjoyable, intellectually stimulating and fun jobs. However, plenty of people sit tight in jobs they loathe because it makes $X and the job they would really prefer to do doesn't pay as much. That doesn't make them shallow. That makes them human beings.

The people that you refer to doing much more mentally interesting work tend to get paid more than minimum wage, by far. If, however, PHDs started earning little more than minimum wage, you'd see a lot of them wondering what they're staying up nights working on. This is common sense, rEv.

No it's not, it's baseless opinion. Nearly every research scientist I know could earn heaps more money driving an airconditioned truck in the mines. If it was all about money, they'd do that. But they don't.

I never said it was "all about" money. There are, of course, other factors and there are plenty of people who would work their preferred job for less, rather than an easier job for money. That doesn't mean, however, that there aren't also plenty of people who would take the easier, more menial, job for the same money because they would rather work less and get paid the same. You need to understand the difference between the word "plenty" and the word "most."

If you raise the minimum wage to $30k, you are, in fact, going to get "plenty" of college graduates applying for those minimum wage jobs, and they will do so because the pay makes them willing to do the menial job. As the wage for the minimum wage job increases and approaches the wage for the college graduate field, then more and more people from those college graduate fields will be lured by the low hanging fruit.

And, of course, there is a distinction between people who are in PHD programs and mere college graduates. PHD folks are generally in a much different income category with much greater options than either minimum wage folks or mere bachelor degree folks, so the minimum wage would have to be jacked a lot higher in order to draw many of those folks.

Generally speaking, f you can make $10,000 the easy way or the hard way, which way would you make it?

It's not about "easy" and "hard". As an intelligent person, using your brain isn't "hard". It's about what's most rewarding or pleasurable. I and most people I know find using our minds much more rewarding and pleasurable than driving trucks.

Of course, but driving trucks, particularly big rigs, is not easy and not something college grads can just jump in and do without additional training. But, you're missing the point, which I've explained again above. I am going to assume that you're purposefully missing it, in order to make your insulting comments toward me.

If you could make it staying home and doing nothing, wouldn't you? All else being equal, that is.

Great hypothetical. That's not a reality and never will be. And I'd prefer to work part-time and earn that money than sit at home and do nothing.

Why? If you could earn the money doing nothing, you could take that deal, and nothing would stop you from working part time on a volunteer basis, giving yourself the maximum flexibility to work when you want and not work when you don't want to. It would be stupid to reject the offer of free money and counteroffer with an offer that is worse for you. Nothing would stop you from "working part time" if you accepted the free money. So why would you say "I'll only take the money if I have to work part time for it." LOL. I don't think one of your decades of courses included "negotiating." Cuz, you're doing it backwards....

And I suspect that most people would too. This is typical conservative bollocks. Conservatives generally believe that money is the great incentiviser. Psychology, and real life, shows that above a minimum amount, it isn't. People have personal goals and enjoy personally rewarding experiences. Sitting on your arse all day isn't very rewarding for an intellectually gifted person. (and I speak from experience over the last year).

Of course not, but if someone offers you $50k a year for doing nothing, or, you can take a job that pays you $50k a year, why would you take the latter? The former allows you to take the money and then spend your time doing anything you want (which might well be doing the same stuff you'd be doing at the job they offered you, only the choice would be completely yours whether to do it or not).

The point is that a lot of college graduates aren't exactly big thinkers, or particularly qualified. Some of them stay home and sponge off others, even. Not most, but some. And, there are quite a few who manage to graduate college without a significant marketable skill.

I'll grant that in the context of Arts graduates, you might be right. I've been involved with the sciences and engineering at my time at university, and I can promise you that those types don't want to work menial jobs.

Oh, I agree, they don't want to work menial jobs. And science and engineering folks tend to start out higher on the salary chain than other college graduates. The principle holds, though, if, say, a McDonald's fry slinger earned $50k and the starting salary for an Industrial Engineer was, say $55k, the Industrial Engineer would wonder why he's busting his ass in a difficult and demanding job when he can earn almost as much working 8 hours a day on an easy job. Plenty of folks would prefer to be home for dinner with their family than putting in late hours on the latest engineering project.

So now you are changing the hours worked? Why? I'd love to get a look inside your head. I can't understand what's going on in there. Myself and virtually every intelligent person I know doesn't find using their mind as "hard". They find it stimulating and enjoyable.

I never made that equivalence of using a mind and "hard." Most jobs that pay more are harder, irrespective of what amount of mental power is needed. And, most jobs that require a lot of mental energy are also harder. That's why being a doctor, lawyer or engineer is generally "harder" than being a fry cook. It's not that using one's brain is by definition "hard."

Most college graduates don't command $50k a year in the US. The average starting salary is about $40k, and that is even a deceptive figure with the "average" person actually starting in the range of $25 to $35k. Give the McDonald's burger flipper $30k and watch who starts applying for those jobs, particularly with half of all college graduates now lacking full time employment anyway, and most of them not working in any field related to their major areas of study.

I've never actually worked in McDonalds or the like, but I have worked in restaurant kitchens, and I wonder if you have? They aren't actually very pleasant places to work. Perhaps it's a bit nicer in Maccas, I don't know.

[/quote]

Oh, yes, I have worked in kitchens. Early in my work life I worked as a bus-boy, and I worked as a fry cook for a while in college. They were not unpleasant places to work. It's just a kitchen. I also worked in a couple of liquor stores, as well as a deli and a convenience store. I also powerwashed semi-trailers, including horse trailers (if you want to talk about "unpleasant..."), I roofed houses and commercial buildings in 90 degree heat and burning sun, and I did exterior and interior construction, and I worked on assembly lines running welding and CNC machines, etc.

[MrJonno]

Looking at UK wages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_ ... before_tax

Around 25% of the population are on minimum wage +10% or lower, so its reasonable to assume these people salaries are basically set by law.

Around 50% of the population are on minimum wage +100% of lower, so a fair % of these are going to be affected by minimum wage and differentials.

Minimum wage has at least as much influence on a large part of the population as the free market does and to be that looks like a very good thing.

The reality is the minimum wage pretty much determines how much a high % of the population will ever earn, its in other words its utterly critical