What is feminism? PZ rape thread derail

[pErvinalia]

I think people have complained many times about things you've said. You've been warned and suspended for it.

Read the thread, ffs. The context is in relation to people wanting to ban Seth and Tyrannical for their speech. No one wants to ban me. Is it too fucking much for you to actually read the words that are written in the thread?

Look, you said nobody is complaining about what you have to say, but they have complained about what you have to say. My comment was to the effect that, in terms of the allegation that the forum has become a haven for offensive people, that it may well be you who are part of the problem. Your comment asking for people to suck you off is emblematic of that.

Read the thread, ffs.

[Bella Fortuna]

How about you both put each other on fucking ignore and stop shitting up every thread in the bastard forum with your incessant cunting bickering

Word.

Thirded. You both need to stop chewing each others' ankles and antagonising. Or get married.

[Robert_S]

How about you both put each other on fucking ignore and stop shitting up every thread in the bastard forum with your incessant cunting bickering

Word.

You're complaining about people shitting up a derail thread?

The thread was derailed into a NEW SUBJECTt: What is Feminism.

You're smart enough to get that so stop acting thick.

[DaveDodo007]

It is just an example of some feminists questioning other feminists about their claims of being for equality for all women.

I'm against feminism because it is an ideology and I'm against all ideologies because the lead to group think and cult like behaviour. I just pointed the above out to show all is not well at feminism HQ.

Feminism isn't a single ideology.

Not all is well with atheism either.

"...some feminists questioning other feminists about their claims of being for equality for all women." So, what does that prove? That the feminist movement is showing signs of groupthink? OR would a lack of feminists criticizing and questioning each other be a sign of groupthink?

I'm sorry, but I'm not being disingenuous. I'll admit there are some man-haters in there. There are, like in just about every sufficiently large group of people, some real fucked up individuals. But you haven't made a convincing case that feminism is, on the whole, such a horrific thing.

There is nothing wrong with atheism which is 'a lack of belief in god or gods, it is just people trying to add stuff to it that has nothing to do with atheism that is the problem. As far as I'm concerned dictionary atheism is atheism and that's it and anybody trying to make it something else can fuck off.

No, what it is showing is that feminism cannot achieve it's said goals because it is a flawed ideology that believes in stupid concepts like 'patriarchy', 'privilege', and 'rape culture' they are just scary themes to control weak minded women and bring them to the cause. If you base your ideology on false ill defined foundations it will produce adsurbities. As usual the road to hell is paved with good intentions, communism is great in theory just don't look at the mountain of bodies over there and if you think I'm using hyperbolic comparisons well tough as I prefer to tackle the acorn before it becomes an oak tree. Those that don't learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it and all that.

[pErvinalia]

Teh feminizts are going to take over and enslave us!!1!

[DaveDodo007]

I hear ya, sister. As I said, the context for the comment was the calls to axe Seth and Tyrannical because some people didn't like their brand of free speech.

I stand corrected as I didn't know free speech was ever in doubt here, it is the main reason I love this site.

[Bella Fortuna]

Teh feminizts are going to take over and enslave us!!1!

Don't act like you don't love it.

[Robert_S]

[
There is nothing wrong with atheism which is 'a lack of belief in god or gods, it is just people trying to add stuff to it that has nothing to do with atheism that is the problem. As far as I'm concerned dictionary atheism is atheism and that's it and anybody trying to make it something else can fuck off.

Ah, so as far as atheism proper goes: Fuck conventions. Fuck having them be wheelchair accessible if they MUST happen. Fuck skepticism in general, we only need reject the concept of god . Fuck separation of church and state, you need not believe in God to think religion is good thing. Fuck science, people doubted God's existence before the scientific method. Fuck keeping ID out of the science curriculum, It couls have been space robots what designed us. Fuck debunking homeopathy: Nowhere does the theory of homeopathy require a god. Fuck debunking all the other woo out there if it doesn't actually postulate a god. Fuck fighting for the rights of those accused of rape...

Are you sure you want to go down that road?

No, what it is showing is that feminism cannot achieve it's said goals because it is a flawed ideology that believes in stupid concepts like 'patriarchy', 'privilege', and 'rape culture' they are just scary themes to control weak minded women and bring them to the cause.

"Patriarchy" is not a stupid concept. It can be used stupidly, but it is a legitimate concept. I've said elsewhere that I prefer it be used as in adjective form when talking about the remnants of it in most of the west.

"Privilege" is not a stupid concept either, but I think it would be better to use "unearned advantage" outside of explicitly SJ venues.

"Rape Culture"... That's a funny one. You see, if some kids were to get drunk and commit a regular physical assault, just a beatdown, and brag on the internet about it later I somehow doubt that the remidial program would consist of essentially: "be careful getting drunk and using social media" Perhaps there are parts of the culture that, even though they might explicitly condemn rape, actually excuse and trivialize it. Hypocrisy is not unheard of you know.

If you base your ideology on false ill defined foundations it will produce adsurbities. As usual the road to hell is paved with good intentions, communism is great in theory just don't look at the mountain of bodies over there and if you think I'm using hyperbolic comparisons well tough as I prefer to tackle the acorn before it becomes an oak tree. Those that don't learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it and all that.

Are you saying... could you be saying that.... intent isn't magic?

[DaveDodo007]

Teh feminizts are going to take over and enslave us!!1!

I do become worried when the curtaining of free speech is advocated, the great thing about the atheist online 'community' was the free expression of ideas. What I see now is bannings and censorship on certain sites and blogs and events for having a dissenting opinion. The 'us and them' mentality along with the demonization of different opinions. The use of silencing accusations such as 'misogynist', 'rape apologist', 'mansplaining', 'privilege' etc, 'troll' for non troll comments. All of these have become common since feminism have moved into the once thriving atheist 'movement.' Atheists behaving like creationist may not disturb you but it does cause concern to me.

[DaveDodo007]

[
There is nothing wrong with atheism which is 'a lack of belief in god or gods, it is just people trying to add stuff to it that has nothing to do with atheism that is the problem. As far as I'm concerned dictionary atheism is atheism and that's it and anybody trying to make it something else can fuck off.

Ah, so as far as atheism proper goes: Fuck conventions. Fuck having them be wheelchair accessible if they MUST happen. Fuck skepticism in general, we only need reject the concept of god . Fuck separation of church and state, you need not believe in God to think religion is good thing. Fuck science, people doubted God's existence before the scientific method. Fuck keeping ID out of the science curriculum, It couls have been space robots what designed us. Fuck debunking homeopathy: Nowhere does the theory of homeopathy require a god. Fuck debunking all the other woo out there if it doesn't actually postulate a god. Fuck fighting for the rights of those accused of rape...

Are you sure you want to go down that road?

No, what it is showing is that feminism cannot achieve it's said goals because it is a flawed ideology that believes in stupid concepts like 'patriarchy', 'privilege', and 'rape culture' they are just scary themes to control weak minded women and bring them to the cause.

"Patriarchy" is not a stupid concept. It can be used stupidly, but it is a legitimate concept. I've said elsewhere that I prefer it be used as in adjective form when talking about the remnants of it in most of the west.

"Privilege" is not a stupid concept either, but I think it would be better to use "unearned advantage" outside of explicitly SJ venues.

"Rape Culture"... That's a funny one. You see, if some kids were to get drunk and commit a regular physical assault, just a beatdown, and brag on the internet about it later I somehow doubt that the remidial program would consist of essentially: "be careful getting drunk and using social media" Perhaps there are parts of the culture that, even though they might explicitly condemn rape, actually excuse and trivialize it. Hypocrisy is not unheard of you know.

If you base your ideology on false ill defined foundations it will produce adsurbities. As usual the road to hell is paved with good intentions, communism is great in theory just don't look at the mountain of bodies over there and if you think I'm using hyperbolic comparisons well tough as I prefer to tackle the acorn before it becomes an oak tree. Those that don't learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it and all that.

Are you saying... could you be saying that.... intent isn't magic?

Well feel free to show where I said being an atheist excludes you from also being a skeptic, anti-theist, secular and you may have a point but since I didn't then I don't know what you are going on about. Atheism is still just a lack of belief in god/s.

The stupid concepts I pointed out are stupid concepts and are just used the quell dissent and deny different opinions and is used to promote affirmative action which is both racist and sexist.

[pErvinalia]

Teh feminizts are going to take over and enslave us!!1!

Don't act like you don't love it.

I don't like hairy armpits and hairy legs.

[pErvinalia]

"Patriarchy" is not a stupid concept. It can be used stupidly, but it is a legitimate concept. I've said elsewhere that I prefer it be used as in adjective form when talking about the remnants of it in most of the west.

Yeah, this is a good point. Using patriarchy as a noun is ridiculous, and I don't really recall seeing it used like that outside of the A+/FtB brand of nuttery (although, I don't attentively dissect every feminist post/article I come across, so I could be mistaken).

[hadespussercats]

wevs.

I was agreeing with the mischaracterisation, not the comment, I assume you did mean it sarcastically from that response.

I can certainly sympathise with it. After all the assumption is that being treated as an equal human being is something that should have been automatic, not something "generously" handed over. That in itself seems patronising. I can understand why one would be angry about that and I understand why the "ungrateful bitches" retort might seem like the sort of projection that those in power might have after handing over that which should have been automatic.

Beyond that though, beyond voting rights and legal equality, what is left but cultural critique? Now I am saying the women's movement is far from finished when it is clear that being treated as an human being with voting rights and legal equality are still not done. I'm behind that. When it comes to cultural critique, some of it seems reasonable, some of it seems nitpicking and some of it seems nuts. Sadly Third Wave Feminism in a lot of cases is little more than cultural critique from a very small group of women usually with wildly different opinions, until the word has become more associated with that and a lot of it does seem to me to ignore everyone else's plight at the expense of some middle-class overly entitled women whining about their lack of privilege.

your initial comment was sarcastic? I'm sorry, I didn't catch that.

[hadespussercats]

I don't want a free speech paradise at all. I think it is juvenile. But a lot of people here do, and then whinge when they get stuffed with offensive opinions. You get what you pay for.

There are a limited number of people on this site who complain about our free speech rule.

We might disagree sharply with an expressed opinion, but that is entirely consistent with the rule.

Wanting them banned is different from disagreeing with their opinion.

Very few people have ever called for someone to be banned for expressing an unpopular opinion.

Is that true? Feels like it comes up a lot.

[pErvinalia]

Teh feminizts are going to take over and enslave us!!1!

I do become worried when the curtaining of free speech is advocated, the great thing about the atheist online 'community' was the free expression of ideas. What I see now is bannings and censorship on certain sites and blogs and events for having a dissenting opinion. The 'us and them' mentality along with the demonization of different opinions. The use of silencing accusations such as 'misogynist', 'rape apologist', 'mansplaining', 'privilege' etc, 'troll' for non troll comments. All of these have become common since feminism have moved into the once thriving atheist 'movement.' Atheists behaving like creationist may not disturb you but it does cause concern to me.

I certainly don't like the Apelusters or most of the Freethought Bloggers that I have read. I don't feel part of this "skeptic community" or whatever it is that these people are always talking about. I know quite a lot of feminist or feministy people via my social activism, and most of them seem pretty reasonable. There are some annoying traits, but to be honest, a lot of those traits are common amongst the far left, and they extend across domains. What happens in Europe? All this A+ and FtB shit seems to be centred around US conferences. I don't even go to conferences on this stuff, let alone US conferences. Is European skepticism all "rapey" too?