The case against guns

[Gallstones]

New plan unveiled to tackle out-of-control gun violence

COMBATING gun crime in NSW remains the top priority of the state's police force, senior officers announced on Wednesday.

In the past 12 months, more than 9000 guns have been taken off NSW streets and 3352 people have been charged as part of ongoing investigations by Strike Force Raptor and Operations Apollo and Spartan.

Unveiling a new plan to tackle out-of-control gun violence in Sydney on Wednesday, NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione said all three strike forces had been brought together to form Operation Talon.

[Hermit]

New plan unveiled to tackle out-of-control gun violence

COMBATING gun crime in NSW remains the top priority of the state's police force, senior officers announced on Wednesday.

In the past 12 months, more than 9000 guns have been taken off NSW streets and 3352 people have been charged as part of ongoing investigations by Strike Force Raptor and Operations Apollo and Spartan.

Unveiling a new plan to tackle out-of-control gun violence in Sydney on Wednesday, NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione said all three strike forces had been brought together to form Operation Talon.

Nowhere does the NSW police commissioner refer to gun crime as being out of control. In fact he says in the same press release: "We know that public place shooting offences tend to rise and fall in cycles. The evidence is there from BOCSAR that in an historical context we are not seeing an increase in these types of shootings."

Also, as I mentioned a short while ago, the incidence of "Gun Crime" has in fact been decreasing throughout Australia for decades. Just look at the statistics for armed robbery and murder. They are all down on a per capita basis.

[Seth]

New plan unveiled to tackle out-of-control gun violence

COMBATING gun crime in NSW remains the top priority of the state's police force, senior officers announced on Wednesday.

In the past 12 months, more than 9000 guns have been taken off NSW streets and 3352 people have been charged as part of ongoing investigations by Strike Force Raptor and Operations Apollo and Spartan.

Unveiling a new plan to tackle out-of-control gun violence in Sydney on Wednesday, NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione said all three strike forces had been brought together to form Operation Talon.

Nowhere does the NSW police commissioner refer to gun crime as being out of control. In fact he says in the same press release: "We know that public place shooting offences tend to rise and fall in cycles. The evidence is there from BOCSAR that in an historical context we are not seeing an increase in these types of shootings."

Also, as I mentioned a short while ago, the incidence of "Gun Crime" has in fact been decreasing throughout Australia for decades. Just look at the statistics for armed robbery and murder. They are all down on a per capita basis.

Sounds like typical police administrative disinformation. "Nothing to see here, move along..."

Sounds like the "historical context" might go all the way back to Ned Kelly to keep him from having to admit a contemporary rise in gun crime.

[Hermit]

Sounds like the "historical context" might go all the way back to Ned Kelly to keep him from having to admit a contemporary rise in gun crime.

That's you listening to your inner voice. The statistics speak for themselves.

Homicide victims, 1989-90 to 2005-06


Rates of robbery, 1995-2006

[Seth]

Sounds like the "historical context" might go all the way back to Ned Kelly to keep him from having to admit a contemporary rise in gun crime.

That's you listening to your inner voice. The statistics speak for themselves.

Homicide victims, 1989-90 to 2005-06


Rates of robbery, 1995-2006

Oh look, a RISE in crime in the last several years.

[Hermit]

Sounds like the "historical context" might go all the way back to Ned Kelly to keep him from having to admit a contemporary rise in gun crime.

That's you listening to your inner voice. The statistics speak for themselves.

Homicide victims, 1989-90 to 2005-06


Rates of robbery, 1995-2006

Oh look, a RISE in crime in the last several years.

Now you don't just have an inner voice that is at odds with facts - you also have an inner eye that ignores them.

[Seth]

Sounds like the "historical context" might go all the way back to Ned Kelly to keep him from having to admit a contemporary rise in gun crime.

That's you listening to your inner voice. The statistics speak for themselves.

Homicide victims, 1989-90 to 2005-06


Rates of robbery, 1995-2006

Oh look, a RISE in crime in the last several years.

Now you don't just have an inner voice that is at odds with facts - you also have an inner eye that ignores them.

Looks like homicides are on the rise starting in 05-06.

Looks like robbery and armed robbery are creeping up slightly since 05.

Got one for assaults and burglary?

[Hermit]

Looks like homicides are on the rise starting in 05-06.

Looks like robbery and armed robbery are creeping up slightly since 05.

...and the National Gun Legislation was passed in 1996. There has been no discernible difference in gun violence between then and now. So, what's your point? That there are short term ups and downs? Duh.

[Seth]

Looks like homicides are on the rise starting in 05-06.

Looks like robbery and armed robbery are creeping up slightly since 05.

...and the National Gun Legislation was passed in 1996. There has been no discernible difference in gun violence between then and now. So, what's your point? That there are short term ups and downs? Duh.

Multi-year jumps in crime are "short term?" Not to the people who get killed and victimized they aren't.

And if there has been no discernible difference in gun violence subsequent to the general banning of many types of firearms, then banning and destroying those firearms was pointless, useless and wasteful, not to mention tyrannical exercise of despotic government power.

If the gun-banner rhetoric were anything close to correct, there would be an immediate and substantial DROP in violent crime after the gun ban and buybacks. There wasn't, as you have just admitted. This means that all those billions of dollars spent and wasted destroying guns owned by law-abiding citizens did absolutely NOTHING to reduce crime.

On the other hand, the ever-expanding ownership of guns in the US, combined with the ever-expanding pool of licensed persons carrying firearms in public HAS resulted in immediate and substantial DROPS in violent crime. This is an indisputable statistical fact.

The obvious logical conclusion is that banning guns does not decrease the incidence of crime, if anything it increases it. But allowing law-abiding citizens to arm themselves easily against criminal predation DOES result in a statistically significant drop in violent crime rates where it's allowed, and more importantly it DOES NOT result in either more violent crime or more firearms accidents, which continue to drop at a steady rate, largely due to the educational efforts of the NRA.

Therefore, there is no legitimate reason to prevent law-abiding citizens from keeping and bearing (concealed in public) those arms best suited to personal defense.

[Hermit]

Looks like homicides are on the rise starting in 05-06.

Looks like robbery and armed robbery are creeping up slightly since 05.

...and the National Gun Legislation was passed in 1996. There has been no discernible difference in gun violence between then and now. So, what's your point? That there are short term ups and downs? Duh.

Multi-year jumps in crime are "short term?" Not to the people who get killed and victimized they aren't.

And if there has been no discernible difference in gun violence subsequent to the general banning of many types of firearms, then banning and destroying those firearms was pointless, useless and wasteful, not to mention tyrannical exercise of despotic government power.

If the gun-banner rhetoric were anything close to correct, there would be an immediate and substantial DROP in violent crime after the gun ban and buybacks. There wasn't, as you have just admitted. This means that all those billions of dollars spent and wasted destroying guns owned by law-abiding citizens did absolutely NOTHING to reduce crime.

1. I was replying to gallstones, who cited an article titled 17 Years After Gun Bans in Australia …Police Say Gun Crime is Out of Control. The statistics show no such thing, and the police NSW commissioner whose press release that article is based, on said so explicitly enough, and those are the only points I have made in my recent posts.

2. There has been no discernible difference indeed, but where did I deny that banning and destroying those firearms was not pointless, useless and wasteful? Do you not recall that I have voiced my opinion agreeing with that on numerous occasions now?

3. The two parties that have introduced the national gun control legislation in Australia formed a democratically elected government earlier that year. Since that introduction in 1996 that government was re-elected in 1998, 2001 and 2004. The parties lost the 2007 election and sat on the opposition benches until September 2013. So much for tyranny in Australia.


I could have mentioned that the annual rate of all gun deaths per 100,000 population in Australia dropped by almost two thirds between 1996 and 2010 (2.82 and 1.06 respectively), but I consider that a moot point because that rate had almost halved between 1979 (4.79) and 1996 already. It's part of a long-term trend that may be unconnected with the gun control law even though proponents of that law will undoubtedly argue that the unprecedented and singularly steep drop from 2.82 in 1996 to 1.67 in 1998 indicates at least some efficacy in regard to the purpose the law was intended for.

Generally, I am sick of the calibre of discussion on both sides of the debate, but particularly the pro-gun one. The hysterical, hyperbolic and ideologically blinkered nature of proceedings really gives me the shits, and I'm only weighing in with my occasional contributions in the forlorn hope that they may encourage a more reasoned approach. Unfortunately, that has not been forthcoming, particularly not from gallstones, Collector Leet and you.

[Seth]

1. I was replying to gallstones, who cited an article titled 17 Years After Gun Bans in Australia …Police Say Gun Crime is Out of Control. The statistics show no such thing, and the police NSW commissioner whose press release that article is based, on said so explicitly enough, and those are the only points I have made in my recent posts.

And I said that the "press release" sounds very much like the kind of disinformation that I see, and have seen from police chiefs and administrators for my whole life, including my time as a street cop and detective, which is calculated to obfuscate and confuse the general public and frequently deliberately downplay or ignore facts in favor of demagogic repetition of "policy statements" that are unrelated to the facts. Like the claim that cops favor gun control. They don't. Police chiefs and other bureaucrats do, but by and large street cops like having law-abiding armed citizens around because they help suppress crime.

2. There has been no discernible difference indeed, but where did I deny that banning and destroying those firearms was not pointless, useless and wasteful? Do you not recall that I have voiced my opinion agreeing with that on numerous occasions now?

The implication is obvious. You are supporting the notion that crime continues to drop, which you link by necessity to the subject of gun crime, which is the subject of the report cited. Your implication is taken to be that you agree that banning guns causes drops in crime. And no I don't remember what you said, I respond to what you SAY...present tense.

3. The two parties that have introduced the national gun control legislation in Australia formed a democratically elected government earlier that year. Since that introduction in 1996 that government was re-elected in 1998, 2001 and 2004. The parties lost the 2007 election and sat on the opposition benches until September 2013. So much for tyranny in Australia.

Ever hear of "tyranny of the majority?" Just because something is done "democratically" doesn't mean it cannot be despotic and tyrannical.

I could have mentioned that the annual rate of all gun deaths per 100,000 population in Australia dropped by almost two thirds between 1996 and 2010 (2.82 and 1.06 respectively), but I consider that a moot point because that rate had almost halved between 1979 (4.79) and 1996 already. It's part of a long-term trend that may be unconnected with the gun control law even though proponents of that law will undoubtedly argue that the unprecedented and singularly steep drop from 2.82 in 1996 to 1.67 in 1998 indicates at least some efficacy in regard to the purpose the law was intended for.

To use a hoary old anti-gun argument, correlation does not equal causation.

Generally, I am sick of the calibre of discussion on both sides of the debate, but particularly the pro-gun one. The hysterical, hyperbolic and ideologically blinkered nature of proceedings really gives me the shits, and I'm only weighing in with my occasional contributions in the forlorn hope that they may encourage a more reasoned approach. Unfortunately, that has not been forthcoming, particularly not from gallstones, Collector Leet and you.

Sorry that you feel that staunch and uncompromising defense of our fundamental beliefs and liberties is "hysterical, hyperbolic and ideologically blinkered" but that's just your opinion. I could (and hereby do) make the same claim about the hoplophobe objection to firearms.

So there.

[Tero]

Un-well organized militia
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2013/08/ ... d.html?m=1

Gun enthusiast friendly version
http://alterx.blogspot.com/2013/08/sher ... e.html?m=1

[Seth]

Un-well organized militia

Stupidity is, and should be its own reward. Of course if Sheriff Joe was doing his job properly he would be coordinating the activities of Militia volunteers and supplying them with communications equipment precisely to avoid such potentialities.

Gun enthusiast friendly version

If the Deputy had been in direct radio communications with the volunteers nothing would have happened, and nothing happened anyway, so what's the huhu about? Volunteers reacted appropriately to an unknown person approaching them without identifying himself in a very dangerous part of the desert. All the deputy had to do was switch on his emergency lights or blip his siren. Of course nobody mentions that HE was probably sneaking up on the volunteers thinking they were drug smugglers.

So if they had been in communication and the Sheriff had been doing what he has full legal authority to do; coordinating volunteer patrols, everybody would have been fine.

I'm shocked that Sheriff Joe, of all people, isn't actively managing, cooperating with and coordinating militia volunteer activities.

[Tero]

it's inevitable, eventually we are gonna register all of you

In the months following the Senate vote, Biden has claimed that at a handful of lawmakers who opposed expanded background checks have told him privately they’ve changed their minds and want another chance. But Biden and White House officials have not named any of those lawmakers.
These days, Obama mentions gun control with far less regularity than when it appeared the Senate was poised to take action, although Obama did meet Tuesday with 18 city mayors to discuss ways to contain youth violence. And with immigration and pressing fiscal issues dominating Congress’ agenda, the prospects for reviving gun legislation appear negligible.
With Jones’ confirmation at ATF, the White House has completed or made significant progress on all but one of the 23 executive actions Obama had previously ordered in January, the White House said. Still lingering is an effort to finalize regulations to require insurers to cover mental health at parity with medical benefits, although the White House said that it is committed to making that happen by the end of 2013.

Read more at http://www.toledoblade.com/Nation/2013/ ... W24xYcv.99

[Collector1337]

it's inevitable, eventually we are gonna register all of you

Good luck with that, because it will never happen, nor will confiscation.