Brilliant NHS

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Seth
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Re: Brilliant NHS

Post by Seth » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:38 pm

Woodbutcher wrote:Americans do not really get proper information for foreign healthcare systems. It's always filtered through a biased newsmedia with their own agenda...Fox is sort of like North Korean news...
Except for the fact that my information on the NHS comes from the British press, and from the government itself, and from the various organizations who research the NHS and conclude it's a disaster in progress.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Brilliant NHS

Post by Seth » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:39 pm

Rum wrote:
Woodbutcher wrote:Americans do not really get proper information for foreign healthcare systems. It's always filtered through a biased newsmedia with their own agenda...Fox is sort of like North Korean news...
I have noticed this phenomenon too. All my family have had cause to use the NHS, a number of them for serious life threatening illnesses or conditions. These include my daughter, my father, my father in law and myself. All of them without exception have praised the treatment, the conditions, the manner of the doctors and nurses (nurses in particular) and of course the outcomes, where appropriate.

Of course things go wrong - it is a huge organisation dealing with millions of people - but they have not with any of us so far.

And yet the media stories one hears about emanating from the USA about our system seem to insist it is on its last legs and about to collapse.
Actually, it's Parliament and people who are in the know who are saying this.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Brilliant NHS

Post by Rum » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:54 pm

What utter rubbish.

You were right of course about getting treatment in pretty well any accident and emergency unit. That applies to much of the world and is as much about the medical ethic as anything. However given the profit 'ethic' that runs most of American medicine we aren't surprised to see that those who suffer long term chronic health problems are more or less simply dumped on the trash unless they have really expensive insurance or lots of cash in your wonder country.

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Re: Brilliant NHS

Post by Seth » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:09 pm

Rum wrote:What utter rubbish.

You were right of course about getting treatment in pretty well any accident and emergency unit. That applies to much of the world and is as much about the medical ethic as anything. However given the profit 'ethic' that runs most of American medicine we aren't surprised to see that those who suffer long term chronic health problems are more or less simply dumped on the trash unless they have really expensive insurance or lots of cash in your wonder country.
And you have yet to even try to justify why I should be compelled to pay for the medical care of a 40 year old morbidly-obese chain-smoking, hard-drinking welfare mother with diabetes, lunge cancer, colitis, nephritis and bad circulation.

I hiked 7.5 miles with a 50 pound backpack last night, and pushed myself to my absolute limit of endurance, at age 59, because I want to be healthy so I don't have to pay for any more medical care than I can help. It wasn't fun, and the last half-mile was brutal, more brutal than any physical exercise I've done in decades. I'm still spent the next day, though I'm feeling better after eating something. Why should my efforts to get and stay healthy to reduce my medical costs be completely wiped out by one fat fuck who can't stop eating Twinkies and swilling beer?

If I have to buy Obamacare insurance, my premiums will go from about $1600 per YEAR for my checkups and meds to more than $2000 PER MONTH for "insurance" that pays for the aforesaid fat fuck's benefit.

Fuck that. She can drop dead from a stroke or heart attack tomorrow and it won't bother me a bit. It's HER life she's eating away, and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay to support her lifestyle for one second. I don't care if she dies. Why should I care if she dies? She's a burden to society as it is and I see no reason at all that I should be compelled to pay for ANYTHING she needs or wants.

And you have yet to articulate a single logical or rational argument why anyone should be compelled to do so. You make it an a priori assumption that I'm her keeper and I'm responsible for and liable for her care and upkeep.

Why is that so? Do you think you can take a stab at explaining why anyone should be forced to support her or care for her against their will? Even Jonno and rEv's favorite canard, that if we don't support them they will rise up and kill us, doesn't wash. That fat cunt is not going to be able to get off the couch, much less take up arms successfully against me or anyone else.

So tell me why I must forfeit my hard-earned money for her benefit, directly or indirectly?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Brilliant NHS

Post by PsychoSerenity » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:22 pm

Nobody is ever going to explain it to you in a way that you would consider adequate because you repeatedly show yourself to be unwilling or possibly even incapable of understanding the underlying world-view that most people share. If you want to reconnect with the rest of the world at any point you're going to have to put in some effort yourself to do so, or you can keep endlessly ranting about how you're right and everyone else is wrong and see how that works out for you. :bored:
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: Brilliant NHS

Post by Seth » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:31 pm

PsychoSerenity wrote:Nobody is ever going to explain it to you in a way that you would consider adequate because you repeatedly show yourself to be unwilling or possibly even incapable of understanding the underlying world-view that most people share.
Really? Or is it because you don't actually have a rational argument? I suspect the latter.

If you want to reconnect with the rest of the world at any point you're going to have to put in some effort yourself to do so, or you can keep endlessly ranting about how you're right and everyone else is wrong and see how that works out for you. :bored:
I just want you, or someone, to articulate a rational argument as to why I must be compelled to pay for some fat fuck's welfare and health against my will. The closest anyone's come to even trying is, against all odds, rEv and Jonno, who at least put up the lame "appeasement of the dependent class as self-defense" argument, which has at least some iota of reason to it.

The rest of you evade the question like it came directly out of the Fukushima reactors. Making vague insulting statements about my connection to "the rest of the world" is just intellectual pygmyism and proves that you don't have a rational or logical argument to present. You just "know" through some "revealed wisdom" that forcing people to support the indolent and careless is "the right thing to do", but you are utterly incapable of explaining why that is logical or rational.

In other words, you have a religious belief that you are clinging to in the face of obvious facts which demonstrate how irrational and dogmatic those beliefs are.

Which makes you no better and indeed no different than an other garden-variety religious zealot.

"Rational" my ass. Bah! :nono:
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Brilliant NHS

Post by ronmcd » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:54 pm

Seth wrote: I just want you, or someone, to articulate a rational argument as to why I must be compelled to pay for some fat fuck's welfare and health against my will.
This sounds like you are talking about the current US system and "Obamacare", where you are - in your terms - being forced to pay more, or something, for insurance. Yes?

But the argument in this thread is really about the system the NHS in UK uses, which is not paid for in that way. We pay taxes and we pay national insurance contributions, they are roughly comparable to Us taxes I believe when state and federal US taxes are both included. Out of that pot of cash, the UK NHS system (systems really, there is a different one for each country in UK) is funded.

It's not perfect. And it's not robbing you (or more accurately me) to pay for someone elses healthcare, it's entirely the same idea as all of us pooling our resources to communally fund for example the military, or any of the other things that governments undertake on behalf of the people. Healthcare seems like quite a good one, really.

Your view of the NHS is coloured by your current situation in US - you cant imagine a way to get from your system of individual responsibility and self interest to our system of universalism. I agree it would be impossible, actually. But if you were starting a new health system, in a new country (call it Sethistan, US of Seth, whatever) it would be much easier to have a system where everyone contributes throughout their working life, and no one has to pay to access the system when they need it, at their most vulnerable. You would also save money because people would not be afraid of cost when they felt a twinge, they would go and seek help, in the long run saving money by catching problems early. And you would avoid the system you have now, where individuals resent the very idea that their money might be spent on someone else.

This post has made me sad.

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Re: Brilliant NHS

Post by MarkS » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:11 pm

I'd like to add my mum has just been in for an operation to relieve pressure on her spine. She can now walk more than 100 yards (at a time) for the first time in a year. (She is a very fit & active 83 year old) I'm so grateful to be living in country with this kind of set up and it needs to be preserved so that everyone in the country can get health care.

I'm not very patriotic but the NHS is something to be proud of. I also think you can make all the right health choices and still find yourself in need of medical care. I feel very sorry for people in poverty who don't have this system. It must be terrifying! Living in fear of easily curable diseases etc.
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Re: Brilliant NHS

Post by ronmcd » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:08 pm

MarkS wrote: I also think you can make all the right health choices and still find yourself in need of medical care.
Great point, something I missed from my response to Seth earlier.

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Re: Brilliant NHS

Post by Seth » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:11 pm

ronmcd wrote:
Seth wrote: I just want you, or someone, to articulate a rational argument as to why I must be compelled to pay for some fat fuck's welfare and health against my will.
This sounds like you are talking about the current US system and "Obamacare", where you are - in your terms - being forced to pay more, or something, for insurance. Yes?
Yes and no. It's a broader discussion.
But the argument in this thread is really about the system the NHS in UK uses, which is not paid for in that way. We pay taxes and we pay national insurance contributions, they are roughly comparable to Us taxes I believe when state and federal US taxes are both included. Out of that pot of cash, the UK NHS system (systems really, there is a different one for each country in UK) is funded.
Right. You are forced by the government to pay for other people's health care, generally the sickest 15% of the population. There are many reasons that socialized medicine is bad and cannot provide what it promises in the long run, but the most fundamental question of all is what is the logical, rational argument supporting the idea that ANYONE should be forced to pay for anyone else's medical care against their will. We all understand how great those who benefit from NHS think it is because THEY don't get a bill for the services, but the bill gets paid no matter what, by other people who may object, as I do, to paying for some layabout obese person's medical care when they have no connection with or responsibility for that person or that person's health.
It's not perfect. And it's not robbing you (or more accurately me) to pay for someone elses healthcare, it's entirely the same idea as all of us pooling our resources to communally fund for example the military, or any of the other things that governments undertake on behalf of the people. Healthcare seems like quite a good one, really.
But wait, when I pay taxes to support the military I directly benefit from that military protection in a very tangible and real way.

But what tangible, real benefit do I realize from paying for someone else's health care needs? You might say I get some vague sense of community or the pleasure of knowing I helped someone in need, and this might be true, but if I want to experience that good feeling of altruism and charity and rational self-interest then why does the government feel it has to FORCE me to contribute. Could it not simply ask me to donate voluntarily by acting as a booster for helping the needy, rather than wielding the implicit force of the State to compel me to participate even if I do not wish to, or do not wish to donate to whomever the government thinks is needy, but rather to whom I feel is needy and worthy of my labor and property. Why is government the only organ that socialists think is capable of making proper decisions about the allocation of resources? This one cognitive disconnect has been proven to be a horrible assumption time and time again as government almost NEVER properly or fairly allocates resources, it allocates them as a method of control, corruption and political gain...always.
Your view of the NHS is coloured by your current situation in US - you cant imagine a way to get from your system of individual responsibility and self interest to our system of universalism.
No, I dispute the very premise of "universalism" as being mindlessly short-sighted, morally bankrupt and ethically corrupt. I believe in individual responsibility AND individual accountability. Thus, if I want to eat twinkies and hot dogs till I weigh 1500 pounds, I have an absolute and perfect right to do so...at MY expense, both financially and physically. What I DO NOT have a right to do is expect anyone else to pay for my lifestyle or the consequences thereof.
I agree it would be impossible, actually. But if you were starting a new health system, in a new country (call it Sethistan, US of Seth, whatever) it would be much easier to have a system where everyone contributes throughout their working life, and no one has to pay to access the system when they need it, at their most vulnerable.
The problem is the "I'd gladly give you a dollar Wednesday for a hamburger today" process of "universal" health care run by a government that does not reserve that which I may be compelled to SAVE strictly for MY benefit. I actually don't have a problem with a law that says that I have to put away X amount per month into a medical savings account in order to prevent me from becoming a burden on the public purse when I get old or sick. That's a rational exercise of government power. But the problem is that this is NOT what ANY form of government-run health care (or health care insurance) actually does, and we all know it. Today's revenues extracted by coercive force from the taxpayers don't go to pay THEIR bills, and they don't get earmarked FOR their bills in the future, they get spent on someone else's present health care costs and the money is extracted by coercion based on a mere promise that if I get old or sick someone else will pay for my medical care.

That's a promise that neither government nor anyone else can legitimately or honestly make because it requires prediction of the (often far) future, and factually speaking no government can predict it's future existence accurately more than about a year into the future, as Egypt and Syria so compellingly prove.

If, however, the money I'm required to save goes into an account at a bank in my town, that ONLY I have access to, it is an acceptable exercise of government oversight. The government can tell me I must save and it can tell me that those savings can only be used for medical care, but the government has NO ACCESS to MY money in any way, shape or form. This benefits me because I know how much money I have saved up and can spend it prudently on medical needs according to my need and judgment. I can buy insurance if I want, or I can let it compound over a lifetime. Two hundred and fifty dollars deposited with compound interest of only 4 percent with a $250 per month contribution adds up to $296,725.30 over 40 years of savings.

That buys a lot of catastrophic health insurance for old age.
You would also save money because people would not be afraid of cost when they felt a twinge, they would go and seek help, in the long run saving money by catching problems early.


Er, that's not a feature of "free" health care, it's one of the major faults that drives such systems into economic national ruin.

This is proven by America's experience with mandatory HMO coverage for employees of companies employing more than 50 people that was begun decades ago at federal insistence.

What they thought was exactly what you describe, but that's not what actually happened. What actually happened is that people paid a lot of money each month for "HMO coverage" that guaranteed them nearly unlimited treatment at the cost of a "co-pay" only. Rather than providing resources for health maintenance to avoid medical care in the future, it was, and is instead used as "pre-paid health care" by virtually everyone. This means that if I pay (as I did when I was a public employee...before I wised up) $27 per month for my comprehensive HMO coverage offered as a "perk" of being a public employee, or I pay nearly $400 per month under a federal requirement that the employer provide "COBRA" coverage for 18 months after I quit, or I pay upwards of $2000 a month for coverage if I'm not eligible for company-sponsored benefits, I pay whether I use the service or not.

Since I'm paying for it, my natural instinct is to make use of it any time I think it might be helpful, whether or not I really need treatment or not, and with a complete and total disregard for the ACTUAL COST of providing that care to the HMO/employer.

So what happens is a massive over-consumption of valuable health care RESOURCES (not insurance, but the actual boots on the ground) for largely frivolous or pointless visits. This is particularly true of families with children, who will run off to the HMO (or NHS clinic) at the slightest sniffle or virus-based head cold of a child in spite of the fact that there is literally nothing doctors can do for the child. So, demand for valuable and scarce health care resources are overburdened by unthinking consumers because hell, they PAID for the coverage, so they might as well use it as often as they like, whether they really need it or not.

And the forces of the marketplace tell us that anything that is in high demand will cost more. The higher the demand, the higher the costs because that's what the market will bear. So, actual health care PROVIDERS (boots on the ground) and those who SUPPLY the industry see the opportunity for profit and they jack up the prices as much as the consumer will bear. And remember, the actual consumer of health care services and supplies is NOT THE PATIENT, it's the insurance company, or in the case of socialized medicine, the government. The patient, you see, has already paid for all that health care he wishes to use by making a lump-sum prepayment every month. The ones who actually pay the bills are the insurers or the taxpayers, and because in particular, the taxpayers have a seemingly endless deep-pocket to draw from, it is to the political benefit of those in government to provide the proletariat with "free" health care that is anything BUT free. It's just cost-shifted from the sickest 15% of people to the other 85% of people who are healthy and rational and don't go to the clinic every time they get a splinter. Because the government has a theoretically unlimited supply of money, those private entities who supply the health care system naturally jack up the prices for their goods and services because the demand is there and so is the money, if they can persuade elected legislators that it's in their political interest to pander to the proletarian desire for "free stuff" in order to buy votes. The legislators don't care how much other taxpayers have to pay so long as their public policy positions garner favorable votes so they can retain their comfy government jobs, paychecks and perks.

And thus does the nation fail on loose fiscal policy. All because credulous and stupid proletarians think they are getting something for nothing when they aren't, they are stealing it from someone else who is being compelled by the force of government to pay for it against their will.
And you would avoid the system you have now, where individuals resent the very idea that their money might be spent on someone else.
It's perfectly natural to resent a thief coming to your door with a machine gun, unloading your wallet and stealing your TV in order to enrich himself is it not? Government is merely the group of well-armed thugs that the dependent class uses to poke guns at people and steal their labor and property that the dependent class conspires with to get what they want.

If I want to spend my money helping someone else, then I sure as hell want to choose exactly who gets my money so that I can determine if they are worthy of my labor and property and so that I can control distribution of my money and labor to ensure that it's not used in a manner contrary to my altruistic, charitable and rational self-interested motives.

This post has made me sad.
It shouldn't make you sad, it should make you angry that government presume to tell you how, how much, when, where and to whom you are obliged to be charitable and for whom you are required to labor without your consent.

Would you rather pay your tax money to the government, where it siphons off no less than 30 percent in order to pay the bureaucrats and minions who "run the system," or would you rather take that cash and give it to the needy family next door or down the street so that they get 100% of the value of your voluntary, charitable, altruistic, rationally self-interested donation of labor and property? Wouldn't you rather be able to choose who get your money and wouldn't you rather be able to make sure that it's used for food, clothing and medical care for the needy children rather than for booze, cigarettes and off-track betting by the parents?

I know I would, and do. I've donated literally hundreds of thousands of dollars to "needy families" in my life, probably more than half a million in sum, but I chose which families that money went to and I made sure it was used properly and that no stinking federal bureaucrat got one single dime of that money to fund his sinecure and corrupt lifestyle. One hundred percent of my donations go directly to people who really need it, because I choose to help them, not because I'm forced to do so by the threat of the Mace of State.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Brilliant NHS

Post by Seth » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:13 pm

ronmcd wrote:
MarkS wrote: I also think you can make all the right health choices and still find yourself in need of medical care.
Great point, something I missed from my response to Seth earlier.
Yes, you can. And what does an ethical person with a moral sense do when they face unexpected need?

Do they pick up a gun and go rob somebody or do they politely ask for help?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Brilliant NHS

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:25 pm

Extremists who hold the NHS up as some shining example versus extremists who claim it's a disaster.

Entertaining stuff. No wonder people don't pay attention to those of us in the middle.
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Re: Brilliant NHS

Post by ronmcd » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:44 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:Extremists who hold the NHS up as some shining example versus extremists who claim it's a disaster.

Entertaining stuff. No wonder people don't pay attention to those of us in the middle.
I think you'll find it's people in the middle versus extremists who claim it's a disaster. I'm not aware of anyone who claims the NHS is perfect, not even close.

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Re: Brilliant NHS

Post by Woodbutcher » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:53 pm

You pay a shitload more for private insurance in the States than I do. And you are not covered as well as I am. Seth is supporting a worse system just because he is a misogynistic individual, afraid that a needy person might benefit by his contribution and Seth would not get a say in the matter. He wants to hold people for hostage, lording over them. A puerile dream. Mature people share, immature people are selfish.
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Re: Brilliant NHS

Post by Woodbutcher » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:55 pm

If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.-Red Green
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