Those sexually predatory 12 year old girls!

[Collector1337]

It's lazy to paint everybody who might disagree with you as trolls.
I would only identify three on this forum as habitually trolling. But there are loads who I disagree with.

I might think that their opinions are wrong, or even objectionable. And they me I expect.
That doesn't make them or me trolls.

A few rational posters tried to comment concerning the multi-faceted nature of the OP.

Highly rational comment proceeded for a short time only. Pretty soon the mud-slinging started from only those espousing the PC point of view.
To the extent that zilla called seth a paedophile. With no due cause whatsoever. Quite reasonably seth reacted. Seth gets swiftly cautioned. Zilla nothing yet.
Is it now the case that rational discussion will no longer be accepted?

I’ve no reason to love Mistermack, we’ve crossed swords many times, but he is right on the button with here.
This is a very serious subject and warrants deep discussion, not scurrilous accusations.

Sorry RUM if you want 100% agreement with what you post, then you should say so.

Our town suffered badly when two 13-year-olds accused a head-teacher of abuse. He was subsequently cleared and the two girls recanted their accusation. Too late the head was forced to resign. The frenzy of “12-year-olds are only children and aren’t able to cause problems” is exactly the climate that led to his ‘resignation’.

Exactly.

There was rational discussion for about 5 seconds, until Seth got called a pedophile unjustly, which has still gone unpunished.

Then, pretty much nothing happened other than parroting the politically correct point of view, black and white thinking, and a complete and utter disregard for the complexity of the real world.

Refusing to accept reality can hardly be called rational.

Then, right on queue, the usual, "anyone who doesn't agree with me is a troll" comes on the scene.

It's pretty sad how many people here can't get passed their politically correct black and white thinking. So much for a "rational" forum.

[fretmeister]

Was the senior lawyer Barbara Hewson?

She is known for making comments about cases she is not involved in. She recently called the Savile child rape / abuse Investigation 'a witch hunt against old men'

No, she was nothing like that. She was a lot older, and came across as a senior figure, like the head of the bar association or that kind of ilk.
She certainly wasn't a campaigner, or someone with an axe to grind. She was more there to represent the legal profession.

Alison Saunders?

She's about to become the Director of Public Prosecutions. She's currently the head of the CPS in London.

She was a very strong force in getting the Stephen Lawrence killers back in court.

And then on the other hand, while at the Attorney General's office she managed to hugely upset the Hillsborough families.

[mistermack]

Alison Saunders?

She's about to become the Director of Public Prosecutions. She's currently the head of the CPS in London.

She was a very strong force in getting the Stephen Lawrence killers back in court.

And then on the other hand, while at the Attorney General's office she managed to hugely upset the Hillsborough families.

Nope. This one had grey hair. Got that Alison Saunders's face is familiar though. Probably reminds me of someone.

And then on the other hand, while at the Attorney General's office she managed to hugely upset the Hillsborough families.

Good for her. If I never hear their whining scouse voices again, it will be too soon.
Liverpool fans killed the Liverpool fans. Once they acknowledge that, I might take their opinions seriously.

[Rum]

Well I will offer an apology for my initial response to Seth. It wasn't helpful I agree and I withdraw it. It is a serious subject and deserves serious consideration.

I do have some authority behind my point of view however. I worked as a child protection social worker for 14 years. Later on as a manager in an education/special needs section one of my team's responsibilities was dealing with accusations made about teachers in our county - about 450 schools in total. There was at least one a day, sometimes several. I used to chair meetings with the officer in question, the police and social services around the table. How one responded was in large part down to the regulations issued by central government. Initially teachers were immediately suspended, pending an investigation. Some kids cottoned on to the disruption this could cause and used the system as a weapon, it is certainly true. More recently the regulations have been changed and they are not. False accusations have reduced considerably as a result.

I am not 'PC' about these issues. I'm not sure why that is even a negative thing in any case. Children can be devious, they can lie and I don't believe they are the automatic possessors of innocence that some people seem to think I do.

However children do deserve and require our protection. The issues concerning abuse are complex and there are many shades of grey. A sixteen year olf boy having sex with a fourteen year old, for example, is not in the same category of exploitation as a 41 year old having sex with a 13 year old. In that case (the 'predatory' one) I see no way that any mature man of that age can get away with the idea that they were seduced. The seriousness I would suggest is about the balance of power as well as the legal responsibility one has simply by dint of being an adult.

[Coito ergo sum]

i wonder why the prosecutor would refer to her as that?

Weird.


Rum is right here -- a 41 year old "seduced" by a 12 year old? hogwash. unless the 41 year old had a reduced mental capacity or something, i don't see it as reasonable.

Without any evidence of some extreme and unusual conduct on the part of the 12 year old to coerce or compel the 41 year old to do her bidding, which i find to be highly unlikely, it's really up to 41 year olds to keep their dicks out of 12 year olds. it's not particularly difficult.

I am a bit biased, though, because i've never had a penchant for teenage girls. I felt my first pangs of "this may be getting inappropriate" when I was 19 and dating a 17 year old senior in high school. There was nothing illegal, unusual or actually inappropriate, but I knew that would be my last high school girl. Once i turned 20, any girl i involved myself with had to be in college. My age floor continued to rise and after I turned 21 i pretty much limited myself to women who were 21 and over, mainly because of the different social activities that were associated with being over and under 21. I wasn't averse to under 21, but 20 was basically my floor.

A 12 year old? That wouldn't happen. i would feel horrible, and if she pursued me i'd feel creepy, and sort of like "there there little girl" - pat her on the head - you'll need to go back to your barbies and your sleepovers with friends. i just don't get how hard up a 41 year old has to be that his only social/sexual outlet is with a middle school girl. It makes Wooderson from the movie Dazed and Confused seem like a true gentleman.

[Collector1337]

i wonder why the prosecutor would refer to her as that?

Weird.


Rum is right here -- a 41 year old "seduced" by a 12 year old? hogwash. unless the 41 year old had a reduced mental capacity or something, i don't see it as reasonable.

Or blackmail.

I am a bit biased, though, because i've never had a penchant for teenage girls. I felt my first pangs of "this may be getting inappropriate" when I was 19 and dating a 17 year old senior in high school.

LOL. A whole 2 years. What a rebel you are.

There was nothing illegal, unusual or actually inappropriate, but I knew that would be my last high school girl. Once i turned 20, any girl i involved myself with had to be in college. My age floor continued to rise and after I turned 21 i pretty much limited myself to women who were 21 and over, mainly because of the different social activities that were associated with being over and under 21. I wasn't averse to under 21, but 20 was basically my floor.

Dude, if there's grass on the field. Play ball.

You stole the obligatory Matthew McConaughey quote from Dazed and Confused. An American classic. You beat me to it.



Truer words were never spoken.

[Rum]

i wonder why the prosecutor would refer to her as that?

Weird.


Rum is right here -- a 41 year old "seduced" by a 12 year old? hogwash. unless the 41 year old had a reduced mental capacity or something, i don't see it as reasonable.

Or blackmail.

..snipped..

:

The guy was also done for taking pornographic pictures of her.

[Collector1337]

i wonder why the prosecutor would refer to her as that?

Weird.


Rum is right here -- a 41 year old "seduced" by a 12 year old? hogwash. unless the 41 year old had a reduced mental capacity or something, i don't see it as reasonable.

Or blackmail.

..snipped..

:

The guy was also done for taking pornographic pictures of her.

I'll believe it when I see it...

[Coito ergo sum]

i wonder why the prosecutor would refer to her as that?

Weird.


Rum is right here -- a 41 year old "seduced" by a 12 year old? hogwash. unless the 41 year old had a reduced mental capacity or something, i don't see it as reasonable.

Or blackmail.

That would, of course, be one of the "extreme" factors that might change the analysis. However, the prosecutor would know if, indeed, there was any evidence of that blackmail, as would the defense attorney, and if indeed the word "predatory" was used because of that or some other egregious circumstance, then it would be incumbent upon someone to say something. By virtue of what we know so far, i don't see where blackmail enters into it.

I am a bit biased, though, because i've never had a penchant for teenage girls. I felt my first pangs of "this may be getting inappropriate" when I was 19 and dating a 17 year old senior in high school.

LOL. A whole 2 years. What a rebel you are.

I never claimed to be a rebel, nor do I think rebellion is a good thing, if it means banging middle school girls.

I was explaining why my view of it may well be a bit biased. When i was in high school, i lusted a lot after hot female teachers, and college girls. I did date high school girls in high school, but i was a bit shy at the time, so i didn't do much dating at all until i was 16 anyway. And, I did do some screwing around with a 15 year old when I was 17, at a party, but I really don't think I was ever with a teenage girl who was more than 2 years younger than me. There was always a wide gap in personality and interests and such. What 12 year olds like and do and think is a lot different than what 15 and 16 year olds do and think. At least that's my view of it. So a 41 year old? i can't imagine why a 41 year old would want to do anything with a 12 year old except help her with her homework or something like that.

There was nothing illegal, unusual or actually inappropriate, but I knew that would be my last high school girl. Once i turned 20, any girl i involved myself with had to be in college. My age floor continued to rise and after I turned 21 i pretty much limited myself to women who were 21 and over, mainly because of the different social activities that were associated with being over and under 21. I wasn't averse to under 21, but 20 was basically my floor.

Dude, if there's grass on the field. Play ball.

That's a funny joke, but when you add, "if there is grass on the 12 year old field, play ball" it doesn't sound as cute.

i mean, a 12 year old? At 12 there is no life experience. Imagine yourself at 12. At 12, my perspective on things that occurred only 10 years before was that it was ancient history, and had no real relevance. i was ignorant of most events and i had no relationship experience. i had thoughts and desires, but little or no understanding of them. My friends and I went out riding bikes, playing football and soccer, swimming, all sorts of kid stuff. Most everyone I knew had not had sex, and the most amazing bit of luck was to get access to a playboy magazine and ogle at the amazing women inside. That's not being ready to deal with adults on an even keel.

[Rum]

Well that's where the word paedophilia arises. Most of us are not sexually remotely interested but they are and some compulsively so.

[Seth]

Goddam quote function not working. This is for you mistermac.
Stoopid tapatalk.


So you have met these girls? Excellent, someone who had first hand knowledge (I'm presuming, as you are very quick to point out that others haven't and therefore bollocks). So tell me, how did you manage to not be seduced by these depraved manipulative sex vamps? Was it pure strength of will? Or to you have a formula? You really should share, as it seems all men are in danger of falling prey to these immoral , devious , sex starved wanton girls. Who, of course bring in possession of young fit healthy bodies, and the beauty of youth, just want to fuck wrinkly middle aged men. If course they do.

Some of them actually do. There may be deeply-rooted psychological reasons for this but the phenomenon is hardy something new in life or in literature. I challenge you to find a period in history when May-December romances were NOT prominent in popular literature.

The question here seems to be where the dividing line between an "innocent child" and a "consenting adult" lies, and I'm trying to elicit rational discourse on where that line lies, where it properly should lie, and WHY your opinion on the matter is correct.

It's not enough just to stomp about in high dudgeon and outrage because somebody else has the gall to broach the subject. It's intellectually dishonest, bigoted and very small-minded to imply that just because someone has given thought and attention to the subject that this indicates that they are obsessed with having sex with children.

Aristotle said, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

You should pay attention to his words.

[Seth]

The OP concerned the way courts handle such cases. Young, vulnerable people who appear in court to give evidence have traditionally been treated as if they were not that - i.e. young and/or vulnerable. In one of the worst cases I have read about one of the Oxford group of girls, having been groomed and sold to multiple rapists for sex was cross examined by eight defence barristers (lawyers) on behalf of their clients. In that case the man who was responsible for grooming the girl got 25 years. The girl, speaking afterwards, said that if faced with the situation again she would not give evidence. She was left feeling like she was the guilty one having been 'dismantled' as it was described.

The rules about how such people are treated in court are being changed to make such things less likely.

Which is of course appropriate. But the defendant is still entitled to a presumption of innocence and a fair trial by an impartial judge and jury, so the rules must not go TOO far in making presumptions about the victim to the degree that the whole process is tainted before it begins.

It's unfortunate that rape victims, or ANY victim of a traumatic crime has to face their alleged attacker and testify about the events. It can be highly traumatic. But that is simply part of the cost of seeking justice and truth. We cannot assume guilt and we cannot pander to the sensibilities of witnesses or victims to the point that the defendant is denied his right to face his accuser and get a fair trial.

It's a delicate balance. The alarming thing about this case is the fact that it was the prosecutor who intimated that there has been a miscarriage of justice. I don't know who can rationally argue that there is no such thing as a 12 year old female juvenile delinquent who enjoys manipulating older men and/or enjoys having sex with them. Unlike fishies ridiculous amphigory, stating that such predatory girls exist is not at all the same thing as saying that ALL 12 year old girls, or even any substantial number of them act in that manner. But denying the very possibility is simply ignorant. Rum, thanks for turning around a bit, you are indeed a subject matter expert and it's clear that such children DO exist. Why they exist (probably the result of early sexual abuse) is another question, but it does happen and so it's pertinent to discuss the deeper issues pertinent to the actual (or purported) "victim" of such an incident.

And it's reasonable to do so without implying or inferring that discussing the issue means that one of the participants is a sexual deviant, as fishie and 'Zilla (and you, Rum) have all done. That's simply indefensible. One cannot have a rational or useful discussion by only considering one point of view. Usually that's called "religious dogma."

[Coito ergo sum]

For me, the bottom line for an adult 21 years of age and older is 18. I don't think, as a general rule, there is any reason for 22 year olds to be dating 16 year olds in this day and age. However, I would be comfortable with the legal line being 16 for consent, to over 21. Below 16 I think is getting too young.

My view of it is based on my understanding of what it's like to be 15 or 16 years old, and the difference in perspectives between such teenagers and adults over 21. i am sure there are 14 year olds that have the mental capacity and emotional stability of an adult, but i think there are few enough of them to make it worthwhile to have a bright line rule.

I think that taking matters on a case-by-case basis is unworkable in practice, and like a smoking age you either have a line or not, and making a case-by-case assessment as to whether each child has the capacity to make their own decisions on the issue is inefficient, difficult and cumbersome, if not impossible.

For me personally, at my age, if I were single I would not seriously date a woman who wasn't at least 28, probably more like 35 at this point. if I were out and about and had the chance at a roll in the hay or fling with a 21 year old woman, i think i'd consider it. under 21, and I'd probably pass.

[Seth]

Well I will offer an apology for my initial response to Seth. It wasn't helpful I agree and I withdraw it. It is a serious subject and deserves serious consideration.

Thank you. I withdraw any harsh words I may have directed at you.

However children do deserve and require our protection. The issues concerning abuse are complex and there are many shades of grey.

I agree completely.

A sixteen year olf boy having sex with a fourteen year old, for example, is not in the same category of exploitation as a 41 year old having sex with a 13 year old.

I personally know a girl who was fully-developed sexually, including pubic hair, breasts and hip development at age 11, and she had the libido that comes with new-found sexual maturity...in spades. She was an absolute nightmare for her parents to protect. They had to go to extreme lengths to keep her away from boys long enough for her to develop psychologically enough to know what she was risking. She was quite literally never outside of the custody of an adult around any peer-age boys for four whole years. Now she was not attracted to older men, but the point remains that making generalizations about the libidos of young girls and their desires to be sexually predatory is simply ignorance based in the "ick factor" gut reaction to the idea, not any sort of rational or logical examination.

In that case (the 'predatory' one) I see no way that any mature man of that age can get away with the idea that they were seduced. The seriousness I would suggest is about the balance of power as well as the legal responsibility one has simply by dint of being an adult.

You would have presumed that the aforementioned girl was 21 when she was but 15 based on her appearance and the maturity with which she (eventually) carried herself. If she wanted to seduce some older man she could have easily done so. After all, how many college girls of 18 are you aware of who managed to obtain fake IDs showing they were 21. I confiscated hundreds of such ID's in my years as a cop.

Now, this did not happen in this case, or with my friend's daughter, but it certainly could have happened. Can you still make such an absolutist judgment about the guilt of a man responding to the blandishments of a drop-dead gorgeous girl who looks and acts every bit like a full adult?

This is not a subject that is amenable to pat answers, which is why I'm interested in exploring it. If anyone isn't, and just wants to express the "ick factor" as a rational argument or exploration of the subject, then they should just do so and go elsewhere and leave the real debate to those who wish to examine the subject carefully and rationally.

[Rum]

Well to address your point about 'relative' sexual maturity, that surely is why we have the laws we do concerning the age of consent. They aren't perfect but they sure as hell are better than doing some weird physical sexual maturity test for each case. You have raised yourself the precociousness of the girl in question. It is surely up to any adult male to make sure as far as possible that he isn't in illegal territory. If he was, but had been 'fooled' (hard to be in my view if one takes into account emotional and intellectual development as well as purely physical) then it would count as mitigation.

However we are discussing exceptions. And as we all know exceptions make for bad law. The majority of cases of sexual abuse take place within families and by someone well known to the victim. Opportunism perhaps. No excuses - absolutely.