Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

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Re: Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

Post by Seth » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:37 pm

klr wrote:
Seth wrote:
klr wrote:
Seth wrote: ...

"Price-fixing" is a Marxist term meaning "you're making it too difficult for the proletarian individual to compete.

...
:roll: There ought to be an equivalent to Godwin's Law, dealing with the likelihood of anything not agreeable to those of a hard-core libertarian persuasion being described as "Marxist".
If it looks like a Marxist, and it walks like a Marxist, and it quacks like a Marxist, then it's a Marxist. Why shouldn't I point out that fact whenever it comes up.

Oh, but I do see a problem, I meant "regulating price fixing" is a Marxist term. Price fixing is fine with me because I know if the price is fixed too high, someone will come along and undercut the price-fixers and demolish the structure...in a free market.
Ah well, y'see, there's the problem. Your definition of Marxist has just about nothing in common with any sensible definition I've ever heard.
So you've never heard the Marxist homily "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need?"

Really? I wouldn't have thought you that ignorant.

Can you describe to me in detail why a society would regulate against price fixing in a free-market economy?
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Re: Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

Post by klr » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:46 pm

Seth wrote:
klr wrote:
Seth wrote:
klr wrote:
Seth wrote: ...

"Price-fixing" is a Marxist term meaning "you're making it too difficult for the proletarian individual to compete.

...
:roll: There ought to be an equivalent to Godwin's Law, dealing with the likelihood of anything not agreeable to those of a hard-core libertarian persuasion being described as "Marxist".
If it looks like a Marxist, and it walks like a Marxist, and it quacks like a Marxist, then it's a Marxist. Why shouldn't I point out that fact whenever it comes up.

Oh, but I do see a problem, I meant "regulating price fixing" is a Marxist term. Price fixing is fine with me because I know if the price is fixed too high, someone will come along and undercut the price-fixers and demolish the structure...in a free market.
Ah well, y'see, there's the problem. Your definition of Marxist has just about nothing in common with any sensible definition I've ever heard.
So you've never heard the Marxist homily "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need?"

Really? I wouldn't have thought you that ignorant.

Can you describe to me in detail why a society would regulate against price fixing in a free-market economy?
Can you describe to me why they wouldn't?

And I presume you've no problem with the likes of OPEC ...
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Re: Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

Post by Tero » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:48 pm

Who buys iTunes books? If I had an iPad, I would have the Kindle app on it.

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Re: Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

Post by Seth » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:55 pm

klr wrote:
Can you describe to me why they wouldn't?

And I presume you've no problem with the likes of OPEC ...
Evasion. I asked first, and if you manage to post a credible argument I'll shred it for you and then you will know why not.

I suspect you won't be able to do so however.

And no, I don't have a problem with OPEC. It's their oil, they can do with it as they please. If we don't like the price, we can exploit our own energy sources...which is exactly what we're doing...to OPEC's dismay.

Exactly as I said, no cartel can survive being undercut by free-market competition. And if it prevails for a time it's because consumers find sufficient value in the product to justify the price.

Anti-price-fixing regulations only serve to debase the market, reduce profits for everyone, and allow inferior goods that would normally be rejected onto the market, all in the Marxist name of being "fair" to the "little guy."

America wouldn't be full of cheap Chinese shit if American companies hadn't been driven there by massive government interference in the free markets. And better yet, China would still be a bunch of starving peasants rather than turning into the single greatest danger to world peace and freedom of all time thanks largely to US investment and income to China.
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Re: Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

Post by Seth » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:56 pm

Tero wrote:Who buys iTunes books? If I had an iPad, I would have the Kindle app on it.
See, there ya go.

Me, I'll never willingly use an electronic book, I prefer paper because a) once I buy it it's MINE and I can do with it what I please; b) the publisher can't sneak into my house in the middle of the night and steal it back and sell it to someone else; and c) I pay cash so that neither the publishers nor the gummint can keep track of what I'm reading.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

Post by JimC » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:35 am

Why is everybody picking on my lovely Apple company and its wonderful products?

You are all so mean... :dq:
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Re: Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

Post by Hermit » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:48 am

Seth wrote:no cartel can survive being undercut by free-market competition
, provided the market is free. Which it isn't when it allows monopolies. Apple is a case in point. It made an agreement with five major publishing companies to sell copyrighted material only to Apple, who can then resell it at artificially inflated prices. As I mentioned before, consumers have two options: To buy what they desire at inflated prices or not buy those products at all. They are not free to buy those goods from a competitor, such as Amazon, because there is no competitor who has access to those goods.

This is why government intervention is a good thing. It's the government action that keeps capitalism a free market thing, from becoming monopoly capitalism.
JimC wrote:Why is everybody picking on my lovely Apple company and its wonderful products?

You are all so mean... :dq:
^^^ That's why. :P
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Re: Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

Post by klr » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:19 am

There's a very similar situation in the UK and Ireland with the Sky* Atlantic satellite channel, which bought up the rights to all HBO shows, past, present & future, along with the rights to some other American shows. That was bad enough, but the real problem is that (thus far) the channel is only available via Sky's own satellite service. If you use an alternate satellite/cable service - as I do - then you're out of luck. This has not happened with any other Sky channel that I am aware of. The obvious inference is that Sky wants to force people to switch from other providers to Sky, and is using the exclusivity of Sky Atlantic as a lever.

Legal? Yes - for now at least. But it's blatantly uncompetitive, and illustrates the dangers of a dominant player owning both the distribution rights and a distribution channel.

*Part of BSkyB - Murdoch in other words.
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Re: Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

Post by Collector1337 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:37 pm

Bottom line, Apple is shit. Their products are shit. And people who buy them, especially their computers, are rank technological amateurs.

When you use them and see how they work, especially their joke computers with a one button mouse, you can tell that they have been oversimplified for the sheeple masses to use, under the ruse of being "user friendly."

I'd rather just buy the motherboard, CPU, memory, video card, etc. of my choosing, and put it together myself. It's complete freedom.

Buying and using an Apple computer is for people who like computing with one hand tied behind their back.

It's better these days, but who wants to discuss the massive compatibility problems Apple computers have? Talk about restrictive.

Oh and should we talk about how I can get a computer that's three times as powerful for a 1/3 of the cost?

Yeah, Apple sucks fat donkey dick. I'd love for them to go out of business, but idiots keep buying their products they've been tricked into thinking are good.

Here is something that will blow a Mac users mind:

With a PC, I can just open my computer up, buy a new part if I want to upgrade, throw it in, and it works. Can you just change and swap parts in a Mac? Can you even BUY parts for your Mac? Nope.

Macs are garbage. Highly overpriced garbage. That's what happens to Mac users. They take their "buyer's remorse" and through Cognitive Dissonance, change it into "pride of ownership." It's comical really, to endorse an inferior product.

This is what a computer is supposed to look like:



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Re: Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

Post by Seth » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:09 pm

Hermit wrote:
Seth wrote:no cartel can survive being undercut by free-market competition
, provided the market is free. Which it isn't when it allows monopolies. Apple is a case in point. It made an agreement with five major publishing companies to sell copyrighted material only to Apple, who can then resell it at artificially inflated prices.


That's not a "monopoly" That doesn't begin to be a monopoly. Monopolies can ONLY exist when the GOVERNMENT legally sanctions them by making it UNLAWFUL to compete with the monopoly. This is seen in such public sector services as water, sewer, power and gas providers who may be giving monopoly protection by the government ostensibly to keep prices down. Paradoxically, it turns out that such monopolies actually cause costs to go up and accountability to the public to go down, which is why there are fewer and fewer electrical providers with monopoly protection.

What you describe is nothing more than a perfectly valid and long-standing practice of controlling access to the market in order to increase market share. It's not unfair or unreasonable because there is no free-market concept that guarantees consumers the lowest possible price. Price is determined by supply and demand in a free market.

Take the music industry as an example. The major record companies bind artists to their label with a contract that forbids them to independently market THEIR copyrighted works at a price the artist chooses. Publishers do the same thing to authors. So what's wrong with a distribution company like Apple's iTunes binding the publishers themselves to Apple and preventing them from selling to others at a discounted price? It's perfectly reasonable market-share protectionism.

If the price of that E-book is "inflated" too much, then consumers will stop buying them and the authors, publishers and distributor (Apple) will lose money, so they have to keep their costs low to keep the price low to attract customers.

All Apple was doing was competing fairly and squarely with Amazon.com. Amazon.com had been "undercutting" Apple for a long time with their deep-discount E-Books, but nobody complained about that did they? So Apple did the smart thing and offered SOME publishers a deal: sign an exclusive distribution contract with us and we'll give you 80% of the gross and we'll keep 20%. Then they set the prices where they thought the market could bear them, and they were absolutely correct. People liked paying $12 dollars for an E-book from Apple more than they liked paying $9 to Amazon for the same book. I'm not sure why this is so, perhaps it's because Apple is less intrusive and doesn't reach out to people's E-books to erase content that the customer already has purchased.

Or it may be that by sewing up SOME publishers with an exclusivity contract they cornered the market on digital content for E-books and Amazon took umbrage because they didn't think of it first.

In any event, there are OTHER publishers out there Amazon can go to, Or, Amazon can offer the publishers 85% of the gross and draw them away from Apple...after Apple's contract expires of course.

This is all merely good business savvy and strategic planning and implementation to dominate the market, which is the right of ALL businesses to attempt.
As I mentioned before, consumers have two options: To buy what they desire at inflated prices or not buy those products at all. They are not free to buy those goods from a competitor, such as Amazon, because there is no competitor who has access to those goods.
So what? What gives you the idea that consumers have a "right" to have what they want available from more than one source?

If you want a Ford, you have to buy it from Ford. If Ford decides to only sell it's vehicles on-line through Apple, then the only place you can get a Ford is through Apple. That's Ford's right. Ford gets to decide what is the best and most profitable way to market their vehicles, and they either succeed or fail based on consumer response.

It's no different with book publishers. If they think they can make more money selling through Apple, then it's their right to contract with Apple for exclusivity. Consumers do not have any right to expect that they can get content from anybody or for some artificially fixed price. Supply and demand. With an in-demand product, the producer can "inflate" the price as much as he likes in order to make a bigger profit, but if he ups it too much, consumers will stop buying.

This is why government intervention is a good thing. It's the government action that keeps capitalism a free market thing, from becoming monopoly capitalism.
JimC wrote:
Complete socialist nonsense.
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Re: Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

Post by MiM » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:30 pm

Of course we need fully open markets, without any government involvement what so ever. First thing is to rip out all laws regulating intellectual property. If I see a nice piece of technology, or music, or whatever, I should be fully free to copy it, and sell the copies, if I can. That's only freedom ffs. And why stop there. Why is the government and their pesky police forces stopping me from taking whatever I want. If I like my neighbours car, or house I can take it. Provided I am stronger than him, or faster with my gun. Now that is free competition if anything. :sulk:
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Re: Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

Post by klr » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:39 pm

MiM wrote:Of course we need fully open markets, without any government involvement what so ever. First thing is to rip out all laws regulating intellectual property. If I see a nice piece of technology, or music, or whatever, I should be fully free to copy it, and sell the copies, if I can. That's only freedom ffs. And why stop there. Why is the government and their pesky police forces stopping me from taking whatever I want. If I like my neighbours car, or house I can take it. Provided I am stronger than him, or faster with my gun. Now that is free competition if anything. :sulk:
Exactly. There should be no laws at all. :demon:
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Re: Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:53 pm

That's assuming nobody rises to the top. Don't you ever get the feeling that some folks don't so much hate the police state as they hate that they ain't the police?

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Re: Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

Post by klr » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:43 pm

Here's some food for thought:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality
Net neutrality (also network neutrality or Internet neutrality) is the principle that Internet service providers and governments should treat all data on the Internet equally, not discriminating or charging differentially by user, content, site, platform, application, type of attached equipment, and modes of communication.[1][2][3]

There has been extensive debate about whether net neutrality should be required by law. Since the early 2000s, advocates of net neutrality and associated rules have raised concerns about the ability of broadband providers to use their last mile infrastructure to block Internet applications and content (e.g. websites, services, and protocols), and even block out competitors. (The term "net neutrality" didn't come into popular use until several years later, however.) The possibility of regulations designed to mandate the neutrality of the Internet has been subject to fierce debate, especially in the United States.

Neutrality proponents claim that telecom companies seek to impose a tiered service model in order to control the pipeline and thereby remove competition, create artificial scarcity, and oblige subscribers to buy their otherwise uncompetitive services. Many believe net neutrality to be primarily important as a preservation of current freedoms.[4] Vinton Cerf, considered a "father of the Internet" and co-inventor of the Internet Protocol, as well as Tim Berners-Lee, creator of the Web, and many others have spoken out in favor of net neutrality.[5][6]

Opponents of net neutrality claim that broadband service providers have no plans to block content or degrade network performance.[7] Despite this claim, there has been a single case where an Internet service provider, Comcast, intentionally slowed peer-to-peer (P2P) communications.[8] Still other companies have begun to use deep packet inspection to discriminate against P2P, FTP, and online games, instituting a cell-phone style billing system of overages, free-to-telecom "value added" services, and bundling.[9] Critics of net neutrality also argue that data discrimination of some kinds, particularly to guarantee quality of service, is not problematic, but is actually highly desirable. Bob Kahn, co-inventor of the Internet Protocol, has called the term net neutrality a "slogan" and states that he opposes establishing it, but he admits that he is against the fragmentation of the net whenever this becomes excluding to other participants.[10] Opponents of net neutrality regulation also argue that the best solution to discrimination by broadband providers is to encourage greater competition among such providers, which is currently limited in many areas.[11]

...
If you read the original wiki article, you'll see that most of the opposition to "network neutrality" comes from two sources: Libertarian/conservative think tanks/advocacy groups, and major players (including providers) in the telecomms and media industries. :roll:
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Re: Price fixing - the Feds throw the e-book at Apple

Post by Seth » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:19 pm

MiM wrote:Of course we need fully open markets, without any government involvement what so ever. First thing is to rip out all laws regulating intellectual property. If I see a nice piece of technology, or music, or whatever, I should be fully free to copy it, and sell the copies, if I can. That's only freedom ffs. And why stop there. Why is the government and their pesky police forces stopping me from taking whatever I want. If I like my neighbours car, or house I can take it. Provided I am stronger than him, or faster with my gun. Now that is free competition if anything. :sulk:
Hyperbolic, non-responsive red herring straw man argument. Feh. :bored:
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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