"If you dislike feminism ... "

[Pappa]

I think that Feminism has achieved a great deal. It has changed the mindset that women shouldn't be given the same opportunities as men.

What is disturbing is the tendency within the Feminist movement that assumes that men are the problem. That is fighting sexism with sexism, and it cannot work. It can only alienate.

Excellent point rainbow. I wish I was eloquent enough to express it that way.

[MiM]

But then there are also real perps, misogynists and rapists out there. At least the verbal ones at Twitter and email. And we could do more to show our respect to those who have to face these scumbags. Like completely stop calling A+ Apelust. And understanding that even though there is much overreacting there, there is also much reason to react.

[Cormac]

I think that Feminism has achieved a great deal. It has changed the mindset that women shouldn't be given the same opportunities as men.

What is disturbing is the tendency within the Feminist movement that assumes that men are the problem. That is fighting sexism with sexism, and it cannot work. It can only alienate.

This.

[Cormac]

I think that Feminism has achieved a great deal. It has changed the mindset that women shouldn't be given the same opportunities as men.

What is disturbing is the tendency within the Feminist movement that assumes that men are the problem. That is fighting sexism with sexism, and it cannot work. It can only alienate.

The problems are distributed. They sure are easier to see when they crop up in men though. And it sure can't be easy for what's also supposed to be supportive of women to criticize women. I imagine one would have to be careful and thoughtful doing so to avoid fucking up.

But that is simply intellectually and ethically cowardly.

It also creates a massive lie and puts it at the heart of the feminist movement.

Bluntly. Fuck that.

[Cormac]

But then there are also real perps, misogynists and rapists out there. At least the verbal ones at Twitter and email. And we could do more to show our respect to those who have to face these scumbags. Like completely stop calling A+ Apelust. And understanding that even though there is much overreacting there, there is also much reason to react.

Absolutely not.

Apelust and their fellow travellers declared that every member of this forum is a rape promoter.

They declared everyone who isn't part of their idiotic movement to be a misogynist.

They have called for campaigns to destroy the lives and careers of completely innocent people.

They are dwell unpleasant people and they are diametrically opposed to the principles of humanism.

Ideally, their forum would just wither and die.

And I, for one, will never grace them with the word "atheist".

[MiM]

But then there are also real perps, misogynists and rapists out there. At least the verbal ones at Twitter and email. And we could do more to show our respect to those who have to face these scumbags. Like completely stop calling A+ Apelust. And understanding that even though there is much overreacting there, there is also much reason to react.

Absolutely not.

Apelust and their fellow travellers declared that every member of this forum is a rape promoter.

They declared everyone who isn't part of their idiotic movement to be a misogynist.

They have called for campaigns to destroy the lives and careers of completely innocent people.

They are dwell unpleasant people and they are diametrically opposed to the principles of humanism.

Ideally, their forum would just wither and die.

And I, for one, will never grace them with the word "atheist".

"Men are rapsists"

That comment is just as intelligent and generalizing as the ones you just made.

[Robert_S]

I think that Feminism has achieved a great deal. It has changed the mindset that women shouldn't be given the same opportunities as men.

What is disturbing is the tendency within the Feminist movement that assumes that men are the problem. That is fighting sexism with sexism, and it cannot work. It can only alienate.

The problems are distributed. They sure are easier to see when they crop up in men though. And it sure can't be easy for what's also supposed to be supportive of women to criticize women. I imagine one would have to be careful and thoughtful doing so to avoid fucking up.

But that is simply intellectually and ethically cowardly.

It also creates a massive lie and puts it at the heart of the feminist movement.

Bluntly. Fuck that.

What the fuck are you reading into my words? I'm saying people need to be thoughtful and careful to avoid fucking up when they criticize women while speaking as representatives of "movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women."

What part of "careful and thoughtful" is intellectually and ethically cowardly?

[Seth]

Please, what's feminism proper? And how does it work?

Feminism proper is about seeking opportunities for women that are equal to those of men. Giving them access to the polling booth and to tertiary education are two examples of how feminism has worked in the not so recent past. Equal pay for equal work is another. Fortunately it is no longer deemed necessary to throw oneself underneath a horse to make it work. Networking and lobbying will suffice nowadays.

So how does proper feminism combat social issues?

Networking and lobbying will suffice nowadays.

So who do we network to change social attitudes towards something like say rape and victim blaming? And how would one go about it?

Um, rape is a crime in every civilized country on earth (which of course lets out all Muslim countries) and has been for a very long time. As for "blaming the victim" there are two categories of rape to be considered; stranger rape, which is an attack by an unknown person with violence, and then there's "date rape" which is a much less black and white and much more controversial subject because, believe it or not, women actually do, from time to time, make false reports of "date rape" which ruin a man's life that in point of fact they ARE responsible for. Sometimes they do it deliberately by waiting until the climactic moment and then saying "No" right before the guy orgasms and then crying rape later.

Sometimes they acquiesce to sexual activity by actions and don't say anything and then claim "rape" later because they regret the intercourse or were "too scared" to say "No."

Then again sometimes men roofie them and clearly rape them while they are unable to protest.

Then again sometimes the girl gets completely blitzed of her own volition and choice, then gives approval for sex, then forgets she did so when she sobers up and cries rape.

Each situation is different and the moral and ethical considerations are likewise different.

Women who say "No means no" have obviously never played the "hard-to-get" game where "no" actually means "ply me with liquor and romance a bit longer and try again."

If you're going to say no, then you have to mean it and there is, in my opinion, a moral and ethical duty to withdraw from the contact with the individual once the proposition for sex has been made and rejected. In other words, there's no such thing as a "conditional no" and women who say no with their mouths shouldn't continue to say yes with their bodies and expect anyone to believe they were "raped."

Speech alone is not enough, your body language must coincide with your protestations to be a valid objection.

You can't say "No...*slurp*...no...*slurp*....don't...*slurp*..." as you suck some guy's cock, or let him fuck you while you wrap your legs and arms around him and moan in pleasure and expect to be believed.

And fuck the feminists who don't think that happens. It happens all the time, particularly with teenage girls.

If you liked it, it wasn't rape.

[Cormac]

But then there are also real perps, misogynists and rapists out there. At least the verbal ones at Twitter and email. And we could do more to show our respect to those who have to face these scumbags. Like completely stop calling A+ Apelust. And understanding that even though there is much overreacting there, there is also much reason to react.

Absolutely not.

Apelust and their fellow travellers declared that every member of this forum is a rape promoter.

They declared everyone who isn't part of their idiotic movement to be a misogynist.

They have called for campaigns to destroy the lives and careers of completely innocent people.

They are dwell unpleasant people and they are diametrically opposed to the principles of humanism.

Ideally, their forum would just wither and die.

And I, for one, will never grace them with the word "atheist".

"Men are rapsists"

That comment is just as intelligent and generalizing as the ones you just made.

Well, everything I've said here refers to things they've actually said or done.

[laklak]

I still don't get the "fucking up" thing. If criticism is justified then it's justified, if it isn't then it isn't. By almost any definition of feminism bar the A+ variety I'm a stone cold feminist, but I'm not going to pull any verbal punches because it might hurt their fee fees. If they don't want to be called dickhead fanatic asshats then they should stop acting like dickhead fanatic asshats. They are as free to ignore my comments and criticisms as I am to ignore theirs, I'm not going to self-censor because what I say doesn't fit in with whatever post-modern claptrap they currently embrace.

[Cormac]

I think that Feminism has achieved a great deal. It has changed the mindset that women shouldn't be given the same opportunities as men.

What is disturbing is the tendency within the Feminist movement that assumes that men are the problem. That is fighting sexism with sexism, and it cannot work. It can only alienate.

The problems are distributed. They sure are easier to see when they crop up in men though. And it sure can't be easy for what's also supposed to be supportive of women to criticize women. I imagine one would have to be careful and thoughtful doing so to avoid fucking up.

But that is simply intellectually and ethically cowardly.

It also creates a massive lie and puts it at the heart of the feminist movement.

Bluntly. Fuck that.

What the fuck are you reading into my words? I'm saying people need to be thoughtful and careful to avoid fucking up when they criticize women while speaking as representatives of "movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women."

What part of "careful and thoughtful" is intellectually and ethically cowardly?

You responded to this statement:

What is disturbing is the tendency within the Feminist movement that assumes that men are the problem. That is fighting sexism with sexism, and it cannot work. It can only alienate

...and seemed to me to be saying that this was acceptable, because taking a more sophisticated and nuanced approach could be easily misconstrued.

When you said this:

They sure are easier to see when they crop up in men though. And it sure can't be easy for what's also supposed to be supportive of women to criticize women

...I drew the conclusion.

Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

[Cormac]

I still don't get the "fucking up" thing. If criticism is justified then it's justified, if it isn't then it isn't. By almost any definition of feminism bar the A+ variety I'm a stone cold feminist, but I'm not going to pull any verbal punches because it might hurt their fee fees. If they don't want to be called dickhead fanatic asshats then they should stop acting like dickhead fanatic asshats. They are as free to ignore my comments and criticisms as I am to ignore theirs, I'm not going to self-censor because what I say doesn't fit in with whatever post-modern claptrap they currently embrace.

[MiM]

But then there are also real perps, misogynists and rapists out there. At least the verbal ones at Twitter and email. And we could do more to show our respect to those who have to face these scumbags. Like completely stop calling A+ Apelust. And understanding that even though there is much overreacting there, there is also much reason to react.

Absolutely not.

Apelust and their fellow travellers declared that every member of this forum is a rape promoter.

They declared everyone who isn't part of their idiotic movement to be a misogynist.

They have called for campaigns to destroy the lives and careers of completely innocent people.

They are dwell unpleasant people and they are diametrically opposed to the principles of humanism.

Ideally, their forum would just wither and die.

And I, for one, will never grace them with the word "atheist".

"Men are rapsists"

That comment is just as intelligent and generalizing as the ones you just made.

Well, everything I've said here refers to things I have perceived someone over there saying

.

[Robert_S]

It's easier for feminists to see and address problems in men's attitudes. It's harder and requires more care to do so for women. What's so fucking cowardly and dishonest there?

You know what I've heard from A+ in the last few months? They made a program to make it easy for people to ignore other people on Twitter.

Oh, and apparently we're clueless wankers living in a bubble for not knowing it.

And what exactly was it that got us all branded as rape promoters? Carelessness.

Be careless criticizing people whose goals you largely support and you can fuck up and find yourself looking like your own enemy. That's not just a feminist or A+ thing. That's life in general.

[Cormac]

But then there are also real perps, misogynists and rapists out there. At least the verbal ones at Twitter and email. And we could do more to show our respect to those who have to face these scumbags. Like completely stop calling A+ Apelust. And understanding that even though there is much overreacting there, there is also much reason to react.

Absolutely not.

Apelust and their fellow travellers declared that every member of this forum is a rape promoter.

They declared everyone who isn't part of their idiotic movement to be a misogynist.

They have called for campaigns to destroy the lives and careers of completely innocent people.

They are dwell unpleasant people and they are diametrically opposed to the principles of humanism.

Ideally, their forum would just wither and die.

And I, for one, will never grace them with the word "atheist".

"Men are rapsists"

That comment is just as intelligent and generalizing as the ones you just made.

Well, everything I've said here refers to things I have perceived someone over there saying

.

You've clearly not been paying attention. They have literally said and done these things. No need for me to imagine it.

We have long detailed threads here where the key bits are picked out. Knock yourself out.

Otherwise, specify which statement/s of mine you reckon are factually incorrect or misinterpreted.