The case against guns

[Seth]

To Seth and Collector.

There are times I wonder about you guys. Do you really have IQ's that reach double figures?

No, triple. I don't have to ask about yours, I know it's in the single digits.

I suggest that a group decision is nearly always better than one made by individuals and you jump to Marxism, communism and collectives? Wow, you must have some shit in your brains!

Just demonstrating that you're full of shit, as always.

Oftentimes too many cooks spoil the broth.

Besides, our system is set up precisely to make it nearly impossible for a "group decision" to take away the fundamental rights of the individual, like the right to keep and bear arms. There's a very good reason for that; it's called "preventing the tyranny of the majority."

Your theory merely supports the Green Monkey experiment, and that sort of despotism is neither moral, ethical nor rational.

[Seth]

That is a very pointed question, Daedalus. Maybe I am a masochist.

Or a mindless idealogue.

[Seth]

That is a very pointed question, Daedalus. Maybe I am a masochist.

It seems clear that they're VERY entrenched ideologues, with polar opposite views to you, but I see that you've engaged in literally dozens of pages of heated argument. It's a pointed question sure, but it has to be one in the mind of anyone new here, which I am.

What you might not know, unless you've read through many pages of threads, is that I have defended myself with a firearm and would not be alive today had I not been armed. Something that groper dismisses.

I guess firsthand experience tends to make you a "very entrenched ideologue." I have deep resentment for people like groper and jonno. Here's why: After having a near death experience and taking time to absorb it all, I really feel lucky to be alive and I realized how close I narrowly escaped with my life. But here's the thing, me narrowly escaping with my life, rested entirely and solely on the fact that I was armed. Had I not been armed, death was certain.

When I think about those who would have me disarmed, and thus me being murdered, it's like they murdered me themselves. I see them just as guilty as those who nearly took my life. It's enabling. It's enabling criminals, from the petty to the psychopathic, to victimize me and other people, with impunity.

Bottom line, plain and simple, criminal enablers like groper and jonno are going to get people killed. They should be ashamed of themselves that they would allow people to be victimized so easily. They are do-gooders who think they are bettering society, when in actuality, they are making it worse.

They must be stopped.

Couldn't agree more. It's vitally important not to let them have the last word or to dominate the conversation, lest some credulous lurker be hoodwinked into believing that just because he repeats his crap endlessly that makes it any more rational, logical or true. The Big Lie tactic is a Marxist principle that's been used effectively in many areas to demonize one's opponents, just as Saul Alinsky wrote, and it's used to try to make the lie into the perceived truth. Some people do it knowingly, like Obama and his minions. Others, like BG are simply Marxist useful idiots because they are True Believers. They have succumbed to the unlogic and unreason and lies and now cannot see beyond their ideology even when presented with piles of facts that directly rebut their assertions. Notice how BG is reduced to pandering his opinions on what's reasonable and necessary WITHOUT evidence to support it? He admits as much by telling us what he thinks are "good ideas" even as society is rejecting them.

He's been reduced to trying to impeach the data proving he's wrong by calling it "anecdotes." Sad, really. But not unexpected.

Gotta admire him a bit though, he's proving to be nearly as dedicated to uncompromising defense of his position as I am, so that's respectable.

[MrJonno]

Well I am definitely alive because I wasn't armed not that anecdotes mean much, we are all statistics and anything that improves my odds on survival in general is a good thing.

If someone wants to break into my house with an Uzi and kill me they will succeed, the trick to maximising my chance of survival isn't having a bigger gun but that person not having a firearm and not wanting to kill me in the first place

It's the evil cult of the individual I pay taxes to ensure people who are infinitely better at keeping me alive than I am do their job.

An individual alone is nothing, cannot survive , cannot do anything of any value its being part of a society with everyone doing their role that keeps civilisation and 7 billion alive.

We are all cogs in the great machine, enjoy your role as the cog and enjoy the machine

[Blind groper]

To Seth

If we exclude, as any rational person must, your interminable cherry picked anecdotes, I think I have posted much more genuine evidence than you have. By that, I mean genuine statistics, rather than made up bullshit.

I certainly agree with Jonno that the best defense is simply to get rid of as many of those guns as we practically can. The failure to do is is the reason the USA has 5 times the per capita murder rate of my country.

Rather than having a hand gun hidden on my person, which is more likely (based on statistics I have presented) to lead to my death than my survival, I would much, much, much rather the other guy did not have a hand gun on his person. Here in NZ, we can be close to 100% certain that is the case.

[Collector1337]

Well I am definitely alive because I wasn't armed not that anecdotes mean much, we are all statistics and anything that improves my odds on survival in general is a good thing.

If someone wants to break into my house with an Uzi and kill me they will succeed, the trick to maximising my chance of survival isn't having a bigger gun but that person not having a firearm and not wanting to kill me in the first place

It's the evil cult of the individual I pay taxes to ensure people who are infinitely better at keeping me alive than I am do their job.

An individual alone is nothing, cannot survive , cannot do anything of any value its being part of a society with everyone doing their role that keeps civilisation and 7 billion alive.

We are all cogs in the great machine, enjoy your role as the cog and enjoy the machine

You sicken me.

[Jason]

@ this entire subforum.

[Seth]

Well I am definitely alive because I wasn't armed not that anecdotes mean much, we are all statistics and anything that improves my odds on survival in general is a good thing.

Therefore, an armed citizenry and your right to buy and own a gun are a good thing. Thanks for admitting that.

If someone wants to break into my house with an Uzi and kill me they will succeed, the trick to maximising my chance of survival isn't having a bigger gun but that person not having a firearm and not wanting to kill me in the first place

Well, yes, but since you cannot possibly prevent either it's prudent to prepare for a different sort of outcome.

It's the evil cult of the individual I pay taxes to ensure people who are infinitely better at keeping me alive than I am do their job.

An individual alone is nothing, cannot survive , cannot do anything of any value its being part of a society with everyone doing their role that keeps civilisation and 7 billion alive.

Meh. That's just an excuse for tyranny.

We are all cogs in the great machine, enjoy your role as the cog and enjoy the machine

Personally I like to toss gravel in the gears so that useless dependent-class socialist meat-bags get killed off quickly, leaving what's left for the people who are willing to work for it.

[Jason]

An individual alone is nothing, cannot survive , cannot do anything of any value its being part of a society with everyone doing their role that keeps civilisation and 7 billion alive.

Meh. That's just an excuse for tyranny.

Not necessarily. But historically, yes it has been a mantra of budding tyrannies. Nevertheless, it is true. Individualism is impossible if you wish to maintain the standard of living the western world is accustomed to. So you either retreat to the hills and become and self-sustaining hermit, along with your family I suppose, or you bow to the necessity of collectivism in modern society.

[Seth]

To Seth

If we exclude, as any rational person must, your interminable cherry picked anecdotes, I think I have posted much more genuine evidence than you have. By that, I mean genuine statistics, rather than made up bullshit.

This is three fallacies for the price of one, Ad Hominem Tu Quoque, False Dilemma, and Begging the Question.

I certainly agree with Jonno that the best defense is simply to get rid of as many of those guns as we practically can.

That's because only idiots think that it's even possible to do so, even if arguendo it's a good idea, which it's not.

The failure to do is is the reason the USA has 5 times the per capita murder rate of my country.

It's not a failure, it's a refusal to do so.

Rather than having a hand gun hidden on my person, which is more likely (based on statistics I have presented) to lead to my death than my survival, I would much, much, much rather the other guy did not have a hand gun on his person. Here in NZ, we can be close to 100% certain that is the case.

You know what we call people who rely on statistics for their safety?

Corpses.

[Seth]

An individual alone is nothing, cannot survive , cannot do anything of any value its being part of a society with everyone doing their role that keeps civilisation and 7 billion alive.

Meh. That's just an excuse for tyranny.

Not necessarily. But historically, yes it has been a mantra of budding tyrannies. Nevertheless, it is true. Individualism is impossible if you wish to maintain the standard of living the western world is accustomed to. So you either retreat to the hills and become and self-sustaining hermit, along with your family I suppose, or you bow to the necessity of collectivism in modern society.

Binary thinking. There are other options.

[Daedalus]

@ this entire subforum.

Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous, but the handful of people involved seem to enjoy fapping about.

[Seth]

@ this entire subforum.

Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous, but the handful of people involved seem to enjoy fapping about.

And the numbnuts in the peanut gallery seem to enjoy throwing feces at the glass.

[Daedalus]

@ this entire subforum.

Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous, but the handful of people involved seem to enjoy fapping about.

And the numbnuts in the peanut gallery seem to enjoy throwing feces at the glass.

You're mixing metaphors again, cupcake.

[Daedalus]

@ this entire subforum.

Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous, but the handful of people involved seem to enjoy fapping about.

And the numbnuts in the peanut gallery seem to enjoy throwing feces at the glass.

You're mixing metaphors again, cupcake.