British public wrong about nearly everything, survey shows

Coito ergo sum
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Re: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey sho

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:55 pm

Collector1337 wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
Collector1337 wrote:
MrJonno wrote:Large parts of the UK are habitable and empty bar fields not tended by over subsidised farmers. There is plenty of room if we accept the country can no longer afford 'rural England'. Take any train or aircraft journey in the UK and you can't fail to see that
Feeling the pain of over population, eh?
Feel the pain of the middle classes opposing any new house building because it will lower the price of their own. What ever you want to call that it sure isn't a free market in housing
Isn't it completely rational to not want more housing since it would reduce the value of their existing property?
That depends. For example, I live in a bugeoning area and the increase in housing is actually helping to cause an increase in demand for housing in my area. So, I've been lucky enough to see the estimated market value of my home go up about 20% since June of last year. If housing starts stall in my area, then that indicates a reduced demand for houses in my area and if demand goes down then the price per square foot goes down.

There is a difference between increasing supply when there is low demand, and increasing supply which actually operates as a catalyst to increase demand. It's like if 10 houses are built in a rural area, the small number of houses won't necessarily be in high demand even though they are in short supply. However, build 1,000 houses in an area, and create a new town and that itself may create demand to live there (as opposed to somewhere else).

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Re: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey sho

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:10 pm

It's a mixed bag. Independent farmers are having a pretty torrid time while Agrbusiness is booming. I listen to Farming Today most days so I count myself as moderately well informed (relatively speaking of course).
www.guardian.co.uk wrote:Farming subsidies: this is the most blatant transfer of cash to the rich
As the British government cut benefits for the poor at home, in Europe it fought to keep millions in subsidies for wealthy farmers

1 July 2013

It's the silence that puzzles me. Last week the chancellor stood up in parliament to announce that benefits for the very poor would be cut yet again. On the same day, in Luxembourg, the British government battled to maintain benefits for the very rich. It won. As a result, some of the richest people in the country will each continue to receive millions of pounds in income support from taxpayers.

There has been not a whimper of protest. The Guardian hasn't mentioned it. UK Uncut is silent. So, at the other end of the spectrum, is the UK Independence party.

I'm talking about the most blatant transfer of money from the poor to the rich that has occurred in the era of universal suffrage. Farm subsidies. The main subsidy, the single farm payment, is doled out by the hectare. The more land you own or rent, the more money you receive.

Since 1999, more progressive European nations have been trying to limit the amount of public money a farmer can capture under the common agricultural policy. It looked as if, this year, they might at last succeed. But throughout the negotiations that ended last week, two governments in particular resisted: those resolute champions of the free market, Germany and the UK. Thanks to their lobbying, any decision has yet again been deferred.

There were two proposals for limiting handouts to the super-rich, known as capping and degressivity. Capping means that no one should receive more than a certain amount: the proposed limit was €300,000 (£250,000) a year. Degressivity means that beyond a certain point the rate received per hectare begins to fall. This was supposed to have kicked in at €150,000. The UK's environment secretary, Owen Paterson, knocked both proposals down.

When our government says "we must help the farmers", it means "we must help the 0.1%". Most of the land here is owned by exceedingly wealthy people. Some of them are millionaires from elsewhere: sheikhs, oligarchs and mining magnates who own vast estates in this country. Although they might pay no taxes in the UK, they receive millions in farm subsidies. They are the world's most successful benefit tourists. Yet, amid the manufactured terror of immigrants living off British welfare payments, we scarcely hear a word said against them.

The minister responsible for cutting income support for the poor, Iain Duncan Smith, lives on an estate owned by his wife's family. During the last 10 years it has received €1.5m in income support from taxpayers. How much more obvious do these double standards have to be before we begin to notice?

Thanks in large part to subsidies, the value of farmland in the UK has tripled in 10 years: it has risen faster than almost any other speculative asset. Farmers are exempted from inheritance tax and capital gains tax. They can build, without planning permission, structures which lesser mortals would be forbidden to erect, boosting both their capital and income. And they have a guaranteed income from the state. Yet all we hear from their leaders is one long whinge.

I have yet to detect a word of gratitude from the National Farmers' Union to the hard-pressed taxpayers who keep its members in such style. The NFU, dominated by the biggest landowners, has a peculiar genius for bringing out the violins. It pushes forward small, struggling hill farmers. The real beneficiaries of its policies are the arable barons hiding behind them.

An uncapped subsidy system damages the interests of small farmers. It reinforces the economies of scale enjoyed by the biggest landlords, helping them to drive the small producers out of business. A fair cap (say of €30,000) would help small farmers compete with the big ones.

So here's the question: why do we keep deferring to Big Farmer? Why do its sob stories go unchallenged? Why is this spectacular feudal boondoggle tolerated in the 21st century?

Here are three possible explanations. A high proportion of the books aimed at very young children are about farm animals. There is usually one family of every kind of animal, and they live in harmony with each other and the rosy-cheeked farmer. Understandably, slaughter, butchery, castration, separation, crates and cages, pesticides and slurry never feature. The petting farms that have sprung up around Britain reify and reinforce this fantasy. Perhaps these books unintentionally implant – at the very onset of consciousness – a deep, unquestioned faith in the virtues of the farm economy.

Perhaps too, after being brutally evicted from the land through centuries of enclosure, we have learned not to go there – even in our minds. To engage in this question feels like trespass, though we have handed over so much of our money that we could have bought all the land in Britain several times over.

Perhaps we also suffer from a cultural cringe towards people who make their living from the land and the sea, seeing their lives, however rich and cossetted they are, as somehow authentic, while ours feel artificial.

Whatever the reason, it's time we overcame these inhibitions and confronted this unembarrassed robbery of the poor by the rich. The current structure of farm subsidies epitomises the British government's defining project: capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich.

Twitter: @georgemonbiot

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... sh-to-rich
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey sho

Post by MrJonno » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:36 pm

We need more houses more than need farmers, leave the bulk of food growing to nations with lower population densities. There is simply no reason for a single country to try and do everything (countries are no more independent than individuals). We are meant to be a trading nation and should try to export something the world wants import what we need ie food
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Re: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey sho

Post by Audley Strange » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:35 am

Apparently we don't Jonno. What you might be asking for in an indirect way is better wages soo people can purchase homes, or perhaps social housing they can rent to buy. That's not going to happen any more that the countryside being filled with flats besides they'd be purchased quickly as second homes by them evil Nimbys and you'd still be complaining.
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Re: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey sho

Post by En_Route » Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:48 am

NineBerry wrote:
Trinity wrote:How can a sample of just over 1,000 people fairly represent the British population?
the Law of Large Numbers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers
Plus they are all fucking stupid.
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Re: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey sho

Post by mistermack » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:25 pm

I think that's a bit of an over-simplification of farm subsidies.
If there had been a cap imposed, that would mean that countries like France would be at a huge advantage, as they have so many small farms.
Britain and Germany have a lot of big, efficient farms, who would be hit by the cap, and be out-competed by the smaller, more subsidised farms. The ideal would be to get rid of the subsidies, not make them even more lucrative for France etc.

France will always veto a change, if you entrench their subsidy advantage.
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Re: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey sho

Post by Tyrannical » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:45 pm

British public wrong about nearly everything, survey shows?

No, they aren't wrong, the British public doesn't believe the bunk "facts" that are being fed to them by the government.
Among the other surprising figures are that 26 per cent of people think foreign aid is in the top three items the Government spends money on (it actually makes up just 1.1 per cent of expenditure), and that 29 per cent of people think more is spent on Jobseekers' Allowance than pensions.
Oh, and I bet if you included aid to foreigners in with foreign aid it would be in the top three. Immigrants and refuges can cost a huge amount of money, especially if they have children going to school.
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Re: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey sho

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:25 pm

Remind me again what's wrong with educating children?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey sho

Post by Daedalus » Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:16 pm

Tyrannical wrote:British public wrong about nearly everything, survey shows?

No, they aren't wrong, the British public doesn't believe the bunk "facts" that are being fed to them by the government.
Among the other surprising figures are that 26 per cent of people think foreign aid is in the top three items the Government spends money on (it actually makes up just 1.1 per cent of expenditure), and that 29 per cent of people think more is spent on Jobseekers' Allowance than pensions.
Oh, and I bet if you included aid to foreigners in with foreign aid it would be in the top three. Immigrants and refuges can cost a huge amount of money, especially if they have children going to school.
I think trying to warp the notion of aid overseas (foreign aid) with aid internally to people you happen not to like is laughable bullshit.
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Re: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey sho

Post by En_Route » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:11 pm

Tero wrote:I asked a group, and 33.33% were not quite sure what this United Kingdom was. They thought it was Arabs.

Well they do seem to own it
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Re: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey sho

Post by Beatsong » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:22 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:Remind me again what's wrong with educating children?
Please keep up. It's only wrong to educate black children, because being subhuman and incapable of learning, it is a terrible waste of public funds.

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Re: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey sho

Post by Beatsong » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:28 pm

Tyrannical wrote:British public wrong about nearly everything, survey shows?

No, they aren't wrong, the British public doesn't believe the bunk "facts" that are being fed to them by the government.
Among the other surprising figures are that 26 per cent of people think foreign aid is in the top three items the Government spends money on (it actually makes up just 1.1 per cent of expenditure), and that 29 per cent of people think more is spent on Jobseekers' Allowance than pensions.
Oh, and I bet if you included aid to foreigners in with foreign aid it would be in the top three. Immigrants and refuges can cost a huge amount of money, especially if they have children going to school.
Like to show us the figures for that, taking into account of course the fact that immigrants also work and pay taxes?

No, of course not. Just pulling shit out of your arse as usual.

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Re: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey sho

Post by En_Route » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:26 pm

Could I respectfully suggest that by responding to his blatant provocations youn are actually supplying him with exactly the amusement he seeks?Some trolls can evince modicum of style and subtlety; this isnt one of them.
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Re: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey sho

Post by Tyrannical » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:42 pm

En_Route wrote:Could I respectfully suggest that by responding to his blatant provocations youn are actually supplying him with exactly the amusement he seeks?Some trolls can evince modicum of style and subtlety; this isnt one of them.
How true. I won't bother to respond to his hateful assertions.

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Re: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey sho

Post by Beatsong » Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:53 pm

Tyrannical wrote:
En_Route wrote:Could I respectfully suggest that by responding to his blatant provocations youn are actually supplying him with exactly the amusement he seeks?Some trolls can evince modicum of style and subtlety; this isnt one of them.
How true. I won't bother to respond to his hateful assertions.
Oh you're soooo above all that kind of thing - aren't you, Mr nigger hater?

"Won't bother to respond" to his pointing out that I was pulling unsubstantiated racist crap out of my putrid racist arsehole, because my delicate sensibilities have been so offended. Yeah, right. :funny:

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