Deemed Consent in Wales.

[Strontium Dog]

The state has the 'right' to take all your organs, all your limbs and your entire body while you are alive, its called military conscription, a tax on your corpse to support the living is very minor compared to that.

Organ taxation on death should be compulsory, sod opt outs and while we are at compulsory blood donation while you are alive. Sure we don't need all that blood but sod it take it and pour it down the drain its the anti-libertarian principle of it

We don't have military conscription in my country.

They don't have it in MrJonno's country either, but admittedly, his posts only ever have the most cursory association with reality.

[PsychoSerenity]

The state has the 'right' to take all your organs, all your limbs and your entire body while you are alive, its called military conscription, a tax on your corpse to support the living is very minor compared to that.

Organ taxation on death should be compulsory, sod opt outs and while we are at compulsory blood donation while you are alive. Sure we don't need all that blood but sod it take it and pour it down the drain its the anti-libertarian principle of it

We don't have military conscription in my country.

They don't have it in MrJonno's country either, but admittedly, his posts only ever have the most cursory association with reality.

Only because they don't currently need it. It was brought in for both world wars, and if there was a new war that required large numbers of people for defence of the country (admittedly unlikely but the point still stands), they would probably bring it in again.

[MrJonno]

The UK government has emergency powers to do just about anything including conscription as does every other country. You country can require you to die for it (through I suspect in these modern times they might have a lot of difficulties enforcing it)

[Cormac]

In the sense of "natural rights", I agree.

However, a nation should have a background set of clearly stated human rights, enshrined in law and difficult to change, that stands above day-to-day political legislating. Whether this is done in the form of a constitution or otherwise isn't important, as long as they exist.

Having said that, I'm not convinced that such a set of human rights should prevent an opt-out organ donation scheme, as long as it is widely known about, and the opt-out procedure is easy to do.

It doesn't matter how easy it is to do. It is still the state laying claim to something to which it has no right at all.

The state should promote donation actively, and should have advocates full time at hospitals to counsel families to do the right thing. Children should be taught that it is a very goodthung to donate, and so on. It should become the cultural norm. But the state should not cross that line.

In my view.

You could apply the same logic to the State encouraging people to donate money for the public good rather than relying on taxation.

On the other hand, the argument in favour of presumed consent could also be used to justify the state producing Soylent Green.

Yes it could, but I think you're missing my point about "rights" in relation to Government.

No, I got that. I just don't agree with it. We constructed our form of government based on a set of principles which are in turn rooted in commonly held principles of justice, reflected in a basic set of commonly recognised "rights". The government does not predate or supercede these. When a government negates these rights and principles, it negates its own legitimacy, and therefore any legitimate source of power

I know that your government was not explicitly formed like this, and indeed officially, in your country, sovereignty resides with the crown. However, this is a figleaf, because underneath that is the consent to be ruled. That consent is conditional upon certain core principles to which the state must visibly adhere, or risk revolution. For me, this is the core of human and civil "rights".

[Jason]

It's also a concept which does not exist in Marxism. Those Marxist bastards in Welsh government say even your body belongs to the state.

L'etat, c'est moi!

[Cormac]

The state has the 'right' to take all your organs, all your limbs and your entire body while you are alive, its called military conscription, a tax on your corpse to support the living is very minor compared to that.

Organ taxation on death should be compulsory, sod opt outs and while we are at compulsory blood donation while you are alive. Sure we don't need all that blood but sod it take it and pour it down the drain its the anti-libertarian principle of it

We don't have military conscription in my country.

Which is why you will never be able to muster the troops to invade Wales!

Why would we invade our Welsh cousins?

(:whisper: well, not in about a 1000 years anyway)...

[Cormac]

The state has the 'right' to take all your organs, all your limbs and your entire body while you are alive, its called military conscription, a tax on your corpse to support the living is very minor compared to that.

Organ taxation on death should be compulsory, sod opt outs and while we are at compulsory blood donation while you are alive. Sure we don't need all that blood but sod it take it and pour it down the drain its the anti-libertarian principle of it

We don't have military conscription in my country.

They don't have it in MrJonno's country either, but admittedly, his posts only ever have the most cursory association with reality.

Only because they don't currently need it. It was brought in for both world wars, and if there was a new war that required large numbers of people for defence of the country (admittedly unlikely but the point still stands), they would probably bring it in again.

...but again, not in my country.

[Cormac]

The UK government has emergency powers to do just about anything including conscription as does every other country. You country can require you to die for it (through I suspect in these modern times they might have a lot of difficulties enforcing it)

Mine cannot.

And while the UK in theory does, in reality, at this time, it does not.

[Warren Dew]

Here's why I don't like the deemed consent idea:

Patient Wakes Up as Doctors Get Ready to Remove Organs
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/patient-wa ... dw5nxap2-J

If the would be donor woke up just in time in that case, there are other cases where she didn't wake up in time, and organs were harvested from someone who was actually alive. I'm sure it's rare, but people should be allowed to decide for themselves whether they want to take risks like that.

[PsychoSerenity]

Here's why I don't like the deemed consent idea:

Patient Wakes Up as Doctors Get Ready to Remove Organs
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/patient-wa ... dw5nxap2-J

If the would be donor woke up just in time in that case, there are other cases where she didn't wake up in time, and organs were harvested from someone who was actually alive. I'm sure it's rare, but people should be allowed to decide for themselves whether they want to take risks like that.

That has nothing to do with deemed consent. It's a risk that is taken by anyone who does sign up for organ donation and can still be avoided by anyone who chooses to opt out.

There are also plenty of checks to prevent that sort of thing, and it's no more likely than waking up just before you are embalmed or shut in a morgue refrigerator.

[Seth]

The UK government has emergency powers to do just about anything including conscription as does every other country. You country can require you to die for it (through I suspect in these modern times they might have a lot of difficulties enforcing it)

Yes, it does, but only because the fuckwits in the UK gave up their right to be armed to prevent the government from doing just about anything to them.

Idiots.

[MrJonno]

The UK government has emergency powers to do just about anything including conscription as does every other country. You country can require you to die for it (through I suspect in these modern times they might have a lot of difficulties enforcing it)

Yes, it does, but only because the fuckwits in the UK gave up their right to be armed to prevent the government from doing just about anything to them.

Idiots.

Don't remember the US having that great a problem even with unpopular wars like Vietnam in conscription even with an armed population?.

Conscription will fail in the UK as the % of people these days prepared to die for their country truly is tiny in the UK and a very good thing that is too. They might put their lives at risk for families and friends but for some foreign adventure that's what poor working class people who don't have a lot of choice but to join up are for

[aspire1670]

The UK government has emergency powers to do just about anything including conscription as does every other country. You country can require you to die for it (through I suspect in these modern times they might have a lot of difficulties enforcing it)

Yes, it does, but only because the fuckwits in the UK gave up their right to be armed to prevent the government from doing just about anything to them.

Idiots.

LOL at the Seth fail. When are you going to stop pretending to have been a cop and drag your butt out of your comfy armchair and take up arms against your own government for spying on you? Next week; the following week; sometime; never?

[Seth]

The UK government has emergency powers to do just about anything including conscription as does every other country. You country can require you to die for it (through I suspect in these modern times they might have a lot of difficulties enforcing it)

Yes, it does, but only because the fuckwits in the UK gave up their right to be armed to prevent the government from doing just about anything to them.

Idiots.

LOL at the Seth fail. When are you going to stop pretending to have been a cop

Never, since I never started pretending in the first place.

and drag your butt out of your comfy armchair and take up arms against your own government for spying on you?

Maybe I don't care if they spy on me. Maybe I'm satisfied that the checks and balances which appear to be working adequately will resolve the issue properly.There is no need for me to do so, so I won't. But the point is that I CAN, if the situation calls for it. Brits cannot. They are completely fucked and totally enslaved to whomever decides to seize power in the UK and exercise it by force over the objections of the populace. That's just a fact.

Next week; the following week; sometime; never?

Indeed. With any luck at all, never. Which doesn't mean it isn't sensible to be prepared and trained just in case it is required someday.

Just did a bit of lovely night training with NVGs at the range tonite. Of the five people who shot at least 10 rounds each, we had a total of three misses at 100 yards using an EoTech red-dot and a weapon mounted PVS-14. And it was freaking dark tonite...no moon. Lots of fun.

[Pappa]

I disagree with deemed consent on principle, but I don't care that my own organs will be harvested without my explicit consent.