Deemed Consent in Wales.

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Cormac
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Re: Deemed Consent in Wales.

Post by Cormac » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:21 pm

Pappa wrote:
Cormac wrote:
JimC wrote:
Pappa wrote:The State has about as much right to our corpses as it does to tax our hard earned wage or incarcerate us for getting high. It depends entirely on your point of view as "rights" have no objective reality.
In the sense of "natural rights", I agree.

However, a nation should have a background set of clearly stated human rights, enshrined in law and difficult to change, that stands above day-to-day political legislating. Whether this is done in the form of a constitution or otherwise isn't important, as long as they exist.

Having said that, I'm not convinced that such a set of human rights should prevent an opt-out organ donation scheme, as long as it is widely known about, and the opt-out procedure is easy to do.

It doesn't matter how easy it is to do. It is still the state laying claim to something to which it has no right at all.

The state should promote donation actively, and should have advocates full time at hospitals to counsel families to do the right thing. Children should be taught that it is a very goodthung to donate, and so on. It should become the cultural norm. But the state should not cross that line.

In my view.
You could apply the same logic to the State encouraging people to donate money for the public good rather than relying on taxation.

On the other hand, the argument in favour of presumed consent could also be used to justify the state producing Soylent Green.
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Re: Deemed Consent in Wales.

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:58 pm

I agree 100% with everything Cormac says.
Kristie wrote:
rainbow wrote:Those that opt out should not ever be considered as candidates for an organ transplant.
:this: Especially that last bit.
If we're limiting rights to transplant organs to those on the donor list, maybe we should limit the right to healthcare to those who pay for it. We'd soon rid society of all those pesky welfare recipients :{D
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Re: Deemed Consent in Wales.

Post by Azathoth » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:45 am

Cormac wrote:
Pappa wrote:
Cormac wrote:
JimC wrote:
Pappa wrote:The State has about as much right to our corpses as it does to tax our hard earned wage or incarcerate us for getting high. It depends entirely on your point of view as "rights" have no objective reality.
In the sense of "natural rights", I agree.

However, a nation should have a background set of clearly stated human rights, enshrined in law and difficult to change, that stands above day-to-day political legislating. Whether this is done in the form of a constitution or otherwise isn't important, as long as they exist.

Having said that, I'm not convinced that such a set of human rights should prevent an opt-out organ donation scheme, as long as it is widely known about, and the opt-out procedure is easy to do.

It doesn't matter how easy it is to do. It is still the state laying claim to something to which it has no right at all.

The state should promote donation actively, and should have advocates full time at hospitals to counsel families to do the right thing. Children should be taught that it is a very goodthung to donate, and so on. It should become the cultural norm. But the state should not cross that line.

In my view.
You could apply the same logic to the State encouraging people to donate money for the public good rather than relying on taxation.

On the other hand, the argument in favour of presumed consent could also be used to justify the state producing Soylent Green.
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Re: Deemed Consent in Wales.

Post by Kristie » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:59 am

Strontium Dog wrote:I agree 100% with everything Cormac says.
Kristie wrote:
rainbow wrote:Those that opt out should not ever be considered as candidates for an organ transplant.
:this: Especially that last bit.
If we're limiting rights to transplant organs to those on the donor list, maybe we should limit the right to healthcare to those who pay for it. We'd soon rid society of all those pesky welfare recipients :{D
Everyone can 'afford' to donate their organs. Some just choose not to. Your comparison is crap.
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Re: Deemed Consent in Wales.

Post by Seth » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:13 am

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Re: Deemed Consent in Wales.

Post by JimC » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:41 am

Kristie wrote:
Strontium Dog wrote:I agree 100% with everything Cormac says.
Kristie wrote:
rainbow wrote:Those that opt out should not ever be considered as candidates for an organ transplant.
:this: Especially that last bit.
If we're limiting rights to transplant organs to those on the donor list, maybe we should limit the right to healthcare to those who pay for it. We'd soon rid society of all those pesky welfare recipients :{D
Everyone can 'afford' to donate their organs. Some just choose not to. Your comparison is crap.
Good point. :tup:
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Re: Deemed Consent in Wales.

Post by MrJonno » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:04 pm

The state has the 'right' to take all your organs, all your limbs and your entire body while you are alive, its called military conscription, a tax on your corpse to support the living is very minor compared to that.

Organ taxation on death should be compulsory, sod opt outs and while we are at compulsory blood donation while you are alive. Sure we don't need all that blood but sod it take it and pour it down the drain its the anti-libertarian principle of it
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Re: Deemed Consent in Wales.

Post by Pappa » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:51 pm

Cormac wrote:
Pappa wrote:
Cormac wrote:
JimC wrote:
Pappa wrote:The State has about as much right to our corpses as it does to tax our hard earned wage or incarcerate us for getting high. It depends entirely on your point of view as "rights" have no objective reality.
In the sense of "natural rights", I agree.

However, a nation should have a background set of clearly stated human rights, enshrined in law and difficult to change, that stands above day-to-day political legislating. Whether this is done in the form of a constitution or otherwise isn't important, as long as they exist.

Having said that, I'm not convinced that such a set of human rights should prevent an opt-out organ donation scheme, as long as it is widely known about, and the opt-out procedure is easy to do.

It doesn't matter how easy it is to do. It is still the state laying claim to something to which it has no right at all.

The state should promote donation actively, and should have advocates full time at hospitals to counsel families to do the right thing. Children should be taught that it is a very goodthung to donate, and so on. It should become the cultural norm. But the state should not cross that line.

In my view.
You could apply the same logic to the State encouraging people to donate money for the public good rather than relying on taxation.

On the other hand, the argument in favour of presumed consent could also be used to justify the state producing Soylent Green.
Yes it could, but I think you're missing my point about "rights" in relation to Government.
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Re: Deemed Consent in Wales.

Post by Jason » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:01 am

Taxation is hardly equivalent to outright seizure of property.

Presumed consent in the case of cadavers, organs, and shit, is precisely analogical to presumed consent to have the state assume ownership of your house upon your death. Rubbish.

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Re: Deemed Consent in Wales.

Post by Pappa » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:04 am

Făkünamę wrote:Taxation is hardly equivalent to outright seizure of property.
Not quantitatively no, but is it qualitativly different? I don't think so.

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Re: Deemed Consent in Wales.

Post by Jason » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:21 am

True.

But then organs are extremely valuable on the grey market. Perhaps if you were allowed to opt out of paying taxes in exchange for your organs when you die.. :ask:

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Re: Deemed Consent in Wales.

Post by Pappa » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:51 am

Făkünamę wrote:True.

But then organs are extremely valuable on the grey market. Perhaps if you were allowed to opt out of paying taxes in exchange for your organs when you die.. :ask:
I'd be up for that. :cheer:
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Re: Deemed Consent in Wales.

Post by Cormac » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:22 am

MrJonno wrote:The state has the 'right' to take all your organs, all your limbs and your entire body while you are alive, its called military conscription, a tax on your corpse to support the living is very minor compared to that.

Organ taxation on death should be compulsory, sod opt outs and while we are at compulsory blood donation while you are alive. Sure we don't need all that blood but sod it take it and pour it down the drain its the anti-libertarian principle of it
We don't have military conscription in my country.
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Re: Deemed Consent in Wales.

Post by JimC » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:54 am

Cormac wrote:
MrJonno wrote:The state has the 'right' to take all your organs, all your limbs and your entire body while you are alive, its called military conscription, a tax on your corpse to support the living is very minor compared to that.

Organ taxation on death should be compulsory, sod opt outs and while we are at compulsory blood donation while you are alive. Sure we don't need all that blood but sod it take it and pour it down the drain its the anti-libertarian principle of it
We don't have military conscription in my country.
Which is why you will never be able to muster the troops to invade Wales!
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Re: Deemed Consent in Wales.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:53 am

JimC wrote:Which is why you will never be able to muster the troops to invade Wales!
Or Toronto.
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