Why us furrrners get upset at some US foreign policy etc

[pErvinalia]

The liberty vs security argument will always be there, but I prefer to see a reasonable balance rather than ALWAYS leaning towards the liberty side. I think the balance today is still reasonable. And as someone who has personally calculated the blast radius between his office desk and the White House, I'm not open to too much compromise on this.

When you couple the revelations about domestic spying with the push to disarm the population, the use of Federal agencies against private individuals for partisan ends, the absolutely insane expansion of Federal power and regulatory reach, "free speech zones", the Patriot Act, Guantanamo, drones in U.S. skies, the administrations refusal until forced to admit they lack the constitutional authority to murder American citizens on American soil without charge or trial, reports of massive ammunition and military surplus purchases by Homeland Security, hell just the fucking name "Homeland Security" - I could go on but I think the point is made - can you honestly blame people for not trusting the government? For wondering when the gloves come off and the jackboots go on? I'm sorry Ian, but "you don't know what's going on out there" simply isn't a sufficient excuse for gutting the Constitution.

Right on the mark laklak. It's no ONE thing, it's all of it together that causes patriots to fear for out future as a nation. We believed Obama when he said he is attempting a "fundamental transformation" of the US. The difference between patriots and the seething proletarian masses is that we understand what his ultimate goal for this transformation is.

Pure and simple it's Marxist State Socialism that Obama is after, and has always been after, as demonstrated by his upbringing, his political associations throughout his whole life, and his actions in office.

People don't believe it only because he hasn't raised the hammer and sickle over the White House...yet. But he's no dummy, he's a dedicated and highly intelligent Marxist Progressive and he knows that Marxism cannot be imposed overnight, so he's taking his opportunity to set in place those mechanisms that will forward the Marxist agenda for the US in subsequent administrations. Obamacare is his greatest victory so far and it's a substantial step towards State Socialism, particularly given who he has tasked with enforcing it...The IRS. Once everyone's health records, along with every other type of record the government manages to accumulate, are in the hands of the government and particularly the IRS, you will see a massive increase in what we have recently discovered (and what those of us who were paying attention knew all along) regarding the political use of the IRS as a tool of terror and despotism.

We're not stupid, and we're not wrong. You just don't want to actually open your eyes and see the self-evident truths because Obama carefully panders to your favorite interests while he prepares to shove a dagger into your kidneys from behind. Very Communist Chinese that...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Batshit crazy, that man.

[Seth]

America is not the only democracy Seth.

No, America IS NOT a democracy. It's a Constitutional Republic that uses some democratic electoral processes. Big difference. Huge.

And the US head yet to actually export democracy to anywhere.

Depends on what you mean by "export."

World War II in Europe was the only moral war that the USA has ever fought. All the others are in some way connected to the extension of US power through the oppression of people through totalitarian states installed by the US.

...if true, (which it's not) the states "installed" by the US are far better for the people than the murderous tyrannies they labored under before...like Iraq, where Saddam's kids raped and murdered thousands of CHILDREN with complete impunity and Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people, many of them with chemical weapons.

It is this incongruity between what the US likes to say about itself and the reality that causes so much disapproval. I love the concept of the US, and its constitution. I've rarely met an American that I didn't like. I would like to look to the USA as a bastion of democracy. Unfortunately, it is not.

That's because we aren't a democracy, thank God. Which still begs the question of why we have to keep people OUT of the US whereas every other fence is meant to keep people IN.

Something about a Constitutional Republic like ours seems pretty damned attractive.

[Seth]

Batshit crazy, that man.

Typical Marxist disinformation. Alinsky all over.

[pErvinalia]

I prefer the Englists, myself.

[Warren Dew]

World War II in Europe was the only moral war that the USA has ever fought. All the others are in some way connected to the extension of US power through the oppression of people through totalitarian states installed by the US.

The morality of WWII is highly exaggerated. Western Europe did well out of it, sure, but for Eastern Europe it meant decades of totalitarian repression - as it did for China as well.

And I think there have been many "grey" wars, that may have had a degree of moral justification mixed in with the cold-war realpolitik...

The Cold War as a whole was much more morally justified than WWII. Much of Eastern Europe was freed from repression and the yoke was made lighter in Russia and China as well, without ceding vast swathes of the world to dictatorship, as we did in WWII.

[JimC]

How was Korea a grey war?

I meant Korea to be included with WW2 as a moral war, as in Cormac's post.

The others since then are somewhere on the grey continuum, with the 1st Gulf war, for example, a much lighter shade of grey than the second...

[JimC]

Warren Dew wrote:

The Cold War as a whole was much more morally justified than WWII. Much of Eastern Europe was freed from repression and the yoke was made lighter in Russia and China as well, without ceding vast swathes of the world to dictatorship, as we did in WWII.

The first sentence is utter and complete revisionist nonsense. If ever a war had to be fought, it was WW2. The fact that it had unfortunate consequences in Europe, as Soviet power waxed post war, does not change that at all. One can assess the mistakes of Yalta, for example, without that changing the relative morality of the war.

The Cold War is, of course, poor nomenclature that refers to a period of super-power rivalry, not a war that can be assessed for morality. The US and its allies stood firm, to be sure, but as much to maintain their power base as to spread freedom and liberty among the oppressed, good PR though that may have been. Having been blocked militarily, the Soviet Union and its allies slowly collapsed through the failure of totalitarian Marxism to deliver anything of real value to its people. They were not "freed" by the direct actions of the West (although its strong defensive position was a necessary pre-condition)

[Cormac]

America is not the only democracy Seth.

No, America IS NOT a democracy. It's a Constitutional Republic that uses some democratic electoral processes. Big difference. Huge.

And the US head yet to actually export democracy to anywhere.

Depends on what you mean by "export."

World War II in Europe was the only moral war that the USA has ever fought. All the others are in some way connected to the extension of US power through the oppression of people through totalitarian states installed by the US.

...if true, (which it's not) the states "installed" by the US are far better for the people than the murderous tyrannies they labored under before...like Iraq, where Saddam's kids raped and murdered thousands of CHILDREN with complete impunity and Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people, many of them with chemical weapons.

It is this incongruity between what the US likes to say about itself and the reality that causes so much disapproval. I love the concept of the US, and its constitution. I've rarely met an American that I didn't like. I would like to look to the USA as a bastion of democracy. Unfortunately, it is not.

That's because we aren't a democracy, thank God. Which still begs the question of why we have to keep people OUT of the US whereas every other fence is meant to keep people IN.

Something about a Constitutional Republic like ours seems pretty damned attractive.

Saddam was put into power by the USA, he had worked for the CIA, and he was the best friend of the USA until he invaded Kuwait (which was a little off script). He was deliberately armed with chemical weapons by the West.

The USA is popular because it is wealthy, has jobs, and espouses principles for a free society. The fact that its actions seem to be undermining that very freedom is very disconcerting and disappointing - which is why I am critical. Countries that espouse pinciples of freedom need to adhere to a higher standard, in my view. (And thiincludes my own country, which has not covered itself in glory over the last 70 years.

[Cormac]

World War II in Europe was the only moral war that the USA has ever fought. All the others are in some way connected to the extension of US power through the oppression of people through totalitarian states installed by the US.

The morality of WWII is highly exaggerated. Western Europe did well out of it, sure, but for Eastern Europe it meant decades of totalitarian repression - as it did for China as well.

And I think there have been many "grey" wars, that may have had a degree of moral justification mixed in with the cold-war realpolitik...

The Cold War as a whole was much more morally justified than WWII. Much of Eastern Europe was freed from repression and the yoke was made lighter in Russia and China as well, without ceding vast swathes of the world to dictatorship, as we did in WWII.

Well, I didn't mean to include the USSR - which,although it took the brunt of the fighting, was first allied with the Nazis to carve up Europe between them, and only when things went against them did they change sides.

But the effort in Western Europe was relatively moral.

It was during the Cold War that the USA took over from the UK to become number 1 installer of totalitarian dictators from Saddam to the Shah. It was in that period that the US adopted the vile Saudi regime and so on. Realpolitik takes you places that are very unsavoury.

While the US rightly opposed communism, it did so in a manner that led to appalling lives four millions and millions of people, largely driven by the strategic need to control middle eastern oil.

[Cormac]

Warren Dew wrote:

The Cold War as a whole was much more morally justified than WWII. Much of Eastern Europe was freed from repression and the yoke was made lighter in Russia and China as well, without ceding vast swathes of the world to dictatorship, as we did in WWII.

The first sentence is utter and complete revisionist nonsense. If ever a war had to be fought, it was WW2. The fact that it had unfortunate consequences in Europe, as Soviet power waxed post war, does not change that at all. One can assess the mistakes of Yalta, for example, without that changing the relative morality of the war.

The Cold War is, of course, poor nomenclature that refers to a period of super-power rivalry, not a war that can be assessed for morality. The US and its allies stood firm, to be sure, but as much to maintain their power base as to spread freedom and liberty among the oppressed, good PR though that may have been. Having been blocked militarily, the Soviet Union and its allies slowly collapsed through the failure of totalitarian Marxism to deliver anything of real value to its people. They were not "freed" by the direct actions of the West (although its strong defensive position was a necessary pre-condition)

Can you name one place except Korea where the US and its allies spread freedom and liberty?

[Clinton Huxley]

At least we installed dictators who knew when to use which piece of cutlery and understood the LBW rule. Better class of dictators in our day.

[Cormac]

At least we installed dictators who knew when to use which piece of cutlery and understood the LBW rule. Better class of dictators in our day.

Idi Amin.


Also, the Shah was one of yours, but British Intelligence needed the CIA to step in and finish the project...

[Clinton Huxley]

At least we installed dictators who knew when to use which piece of cutlery and understood the LBW rule. Better class of dictators in our day.

Idi Amin.


Also, the Shah was one of yours, but British Intelligence needed the CIA to step in and finish the project...

Yeah, we outsourced that one.

[JimC]

Cormac wrote:

Can you name one place except Korea where the US and its allies spread freedom and liberty?

Wars do not have to have "spreading freedom and liberty" as a goal, or even achieve it, to have a moral dimension (if often amongst mixed motives)

* The liberation of Kuwait from Saddam Hussein
* Granada, even if it was a soap opera...
* East Timor, an Aussie operation under UN auspices...

The initial military action in Afghanistan was justified, IMO, even if the subsequent drawn out campaign was ill-advised.
Libya goes down as a maybe...
Iraq is the messiest example of mixed motives and poor decision making, but it did at least result in an arsehole getting the boot. Perhaps not enough reason to put it on the plus side of the moral ledger...