Skepchick Warring with Dawkins Again

[Collector1337]

I guess virulent misanthropy counts as a reason...

Nope.

Population control.

[PsychoSerenity]

I guess virulent misanthropy counts as a reason...

Nope.

Population control.

So with no time limits, if your mother decided to have you aborted now...

[Collector1337]

I guess virulent misanthropy counts as a reason...

Nope.

Population control.

So with no time limits, if your mother decided to have you aborted now...

That wouldn't be an abortion, now would it?

[Audley Strange]

Your continued existence would be aborted, so yes.

[Collector1337]

Your continued existence would be aborted, so yes.

You certainly have a broad definition of abortion.

[Audley Strange]

Your continued existence would be aborted, so yes.

You certainly have a broad definition of abortion.

Nope. From Abort, to end before completion. If you are talking about the medical term specifically then there is such a thing as Post Partum abortion which while might be controversial from a legal or medical standpoint, is not that uncommon, historically or globally.

[Hermit]

Your continued existence would be aborted, so yes.

You certainly have a broad definition of abortion.

Nope. From Abort, to end before completion. If you are talking about the medical term specifically then there is such a thing as Post Partum abortion which while might be controversial from a legal or medical standpoint, is not that uncommon, historically or globally.

I think it could be useful not to blur the distinction between the abortion of a foetus and infanticide.

[JimC]

Your continued existence would be aborted, so yes.

You certainly have a broad definition of abortion.

Nope. From Abort, to end before completion. If you are talking about the medical term specifically then there is such a thing as Post Partum abortion which while might be controversial from a legal or medical standpoint, is not that uncommon, historically or globally.

I think it could be useful not to blur the distinction between the abortion of a foetus and infanticide.

[PsychoSerenity]

Your continued existence would be aborted, so yes.

You certainly have a broad definition of abortion.

Nope. From Abort, to end before completion. If you are talking about the medical term specifically then there is such a thing as Post Partum abortion which while might be controversial from a legal or medical standpoint, is not that uncommon, historically or globally.

I think it could be useful not to blur the distinction between the abortion of a foetus and infanticide.

But what is the distinction? Collector said he favours no time limits. The birth is certainly a notable moment, but there is really very little difference between the day a baby is born and the day before. An abortion at that point would still involve delivering the baby stillborn, so why not deliver it alive? The reason Collector gave was population control. So if there is nobody that is able to care for a newborn baby as there are too many already, why not kill it then? As Audley points out, historically that has been common practice.

[pErvinalia]

Yeah, a limit of "birth" is too unspecific. I like the 21 week thing, or thereabouts, when a baby could be delivered and live. The slight problem with this is that technologies will extend this date back towards conception, presumably. It's a fucking tough issue, no doubt.

[Hermit]

Your continued existence would be aborted, so yes.

You certainly have a broad definition of abortion.

Nope. From Abort, to end before completion. If you are talking about the medical term specifically then there is such a thing as Post Partum abortion which while might be controversial from a legal or medical standpoint, is not that uncommon, historically or globally.

I think it could be useful not to blur the distinction between the abortion of a foetus and infanticide.

But what is the distinction? Collector said he favours no time limits. The birth is certainly a notable moment...

That is the distinction I had in mind.

[Coito ergo sum]

Yeah, a limit of "birth" is too unspecific. I like the 21 week thing, or thereabouts, when a baby could be delivered and live. The slight problem with this is that technologies will extend this date back towards conception, presumably. It's a fucking tough issue, no doubt.

Yeah, but there is something distasteful about someone saying "I want an abortion." And, the doctor replying "you know, we can just remove the fetus and put it in this artificial womb and then you won't have to carry it and you can forget about it." And, the person replying, effectively, "no, if I don't want it as my child, then it's going to die."

I don't know how long it will be to get to the technology you're talking about, but it will likely come about. And, in that case, though, I bet you will see a movement of parents to avoid the whole pregnancy thing after all and simply have the child grown in the artificial womb. Would save a little hassle....

[Audley Strange]

Your continued existence would be aborted, so yes.

You certainly have a broad definition of abortion.

Nope. From Abort, to end before completion. If you are talking about the medical term specifically then there is such a thing as Post Partum abortion which while might be controversial from a legal or medical standpoint, is not that uncommon, historically or globally.

I think it could be useful not to blur the distinction between the abortion of a foetus and infanticide.

It could be by then there is such a term as feticide. Both Infanticide and Feticide are broad terms, granted, but the tend to be legal rather than medical. Since Collector1337 was talking about abortion and abortion with no time limits I was pointing out that the term abort comes from to end before completion.

I think it could be useful not to conflate legal terminology with medical terminology.

[Hermit]

I think it could be useful not to conflate legal terminology with medical terminology.

"Birth" is both a legal and a medical term. At any rate, when we are talking about abortion - at least in this context - are we not primarily talking about it in the legal context? Or are you trying to obfuscate by steering the discussion into the metaphysical - perhaps post-modernist sphere?

[Audley Strange]

"Birth" is both a legal and a medical term. At any rate, when we are talking about abortion - at least in this context - are we not primarily talking about it in the legal context? Or are you trying to obfuscate by steering the discussion into the metaphysical - perhaps post-modernist sphere?

No, that was not my intent nor have I any idea why you would assume so. My intent was pretty simple. Collectorleet said that they were against time limits.Psychoserenity pointed out that without any time limits then that allows abortion to be done on adults. Collectorleet denied that would be the case because it would not be abortion.

I pointed out that abort means to end before completion.

Collectorleet said that was a broad definition of abortion. I pointed out that it wasn't. That there were different terminologies and it depended on what he actually meant.

For some reason unclear to me, you decided to bring in the distinction between abortion and infanticide which is irrelevant given that infanticide would be a term for illegal post-partum abortion, but, since Collectorleet was against time limits then there is no reason to assume any arbitrary date where it is illegal to perform. Now in many places Abortion is legal, but usually with a time limit. Without time limits there is no specific reason to stop after the baby is born and since it would be legal it could not be considered murder or infanticide, it would be considered Post Partum abortion.

I did not mention the word Birth at all. Why you brought that up eludes me.