The case against guns

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Collector1337
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Re: The case against guns

Post by Collector1337 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:12 am

Blind groper wrote:It is not basic history. It is true that many medieval societies have limited the access to weapons of the peasantry, but this is not relevant to today's world.

The broad sweeping statements of Fakuname plus others, which are to my view equally idiotic, cannot be based on ancient history. Nor even on limited examples. I have been told that it is proven that limiting access to firearms is a precursor to totalitarianism (or words to that effect). I want to see that proven, not by anecdotes, but by a proper study. Someone with proper credentials, who has done the research. No hearsay bullshit, but real meaningful work.

This will be published in peer reviewed reputable journals. Telling me to read a book, or vague statements like "it is history" is just another idiot spouting crap.

Show me the research or shut up!!!
Făkünamę wrote:*yawn*

I'm not submitting a research paper here for your benefit. Obviously you're either too obtuse, or simply too deliberately obtuse, to make connections on your own. A pity, but not my problem. Go read a book.


:this:

I'm using groper's insane obtuseness as an excuse to give him all the research he deserves: Memes.

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"Der größte Unsinn, den man in den besetzen Ostgebieten machen könnte, sei der, den unterworfenen Völkern Waffen zu geben. Die Geschicte lehre, daß alle Herrenvölker untergegangen seien, nachdem sie den von ihnen unterworfenen Volkern Waffen bewilligt hatten."

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so."
--- Adolf Hitler

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I wonder who has a better grasp of history: Hitler or Blind groper?

:funny:

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Re: The case against guns

Post by Blind groper » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:36 am

To Collector.

What a sizeable collection of bullshit!

There is a basic principle of logic that you seem determined to ignore. That is : comparisons should be apples with apples, not with oranges.

If you want to draw a principle related to modern western society, you must compare to modern western societies, not ancient societies, and not to non western societies. If you do otherwise, you are arguing bullcrap.

I define 'modern' as post WWII, partly because it is a sufficiently long period at 68 years, and partly because WWII was such a significant event that it changed everything.

Looking at 'civilised' western societies that have limited gun ownership (meaning that you need to pass a test to get a licence to own a sporting rifle or shotgun, and you cannot own a hand gun), we get :

Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Italy, Belgium, Sweden, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, and Iceland.

All of these nations have limited access to firearms, and not one of them has gone totalitarian.

So what you are saying is total crap!!!

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Re: The case against guns

Post by Collector1337 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:49 am

Blind groper wrote:To Collector.

What a sizeable collection of bullshit!

There is a basic principle of logic that you seem determined to ignore. That is : comparisons should be apples with apples, not with oranges.

If you want to draw a principle related to modern western society, you must compare to modern western societies, not ancient societies, and not to non western societies. If you do otherwise, you are arguing bullcrap.

I define 'modern' as post WWII, partly because it is a sufficiently long period at 68 years, and partly because WWII was such a significant event that it changed everything.

Looking at 'civilised' western societies that have limited gun ownership (meaning that you need to pass a test to get a licence to own a sporting rifle or shotgun, and you cannot own a hand gun), we get :

Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Italy, Belgium, Sweden, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, and Iceland.

All of these nations have limited access to firearms, and not one of them has gone totalitarian.

So what you are saying is total crap!!!
Human nature never changes.
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Re: The case against guns

Post by MrJonno » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:05 am

Human nature never changes.
Yeah humans like killing each other only a functional government/society can prevent it
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

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Re: The case against guns

Post by FBM » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:55 am

"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

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Re: The case against guns

Post by JimC » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:56 am

To paraphrase Marie Antoinette...

"Let them eat lead..."
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
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Re: The case against guns

Post by Seth » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:43 pm

MrJonno wrote:
Human nature never changes.
Yeah humans like killing each other only a functional government/society can prevent it
Not working very well in Chicago or DC is it?

That's because government is never there when you need them, they are only there when you don't want them.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: The case against guns

Post by Seth » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:47 pm

MrJonno wrote:My biggest complaint about CCTV cameras is the quality of them, never seem to get a clear picture.

The residence committee at my flat all voted to pay for them out of own money, I would rather have a CCTV camera outside my flat than a gun inside it
Yes, I agree. That way we can all watch the thugs break in and beat you to death with your own computer.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The case against guns

Post by Seth » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:50 pm

MrJonno wrote:
Făkünamę wrote:No, because conscripts are under the command and control of the conscriptor.

You're apparently working from some unstated premise in making your case for your fear of the general public, because what you wrote make no sense otherwise.
Public = violent animals, impulsive, uneducated, and general chaotic
Governments = ordered, controlled, professional.

WHAT?!


You do realize that "government" is made up of "the public," right?

"Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The case against guns

Post by Seth » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:52 pm

Blind groper wrote:To Fakuname, and others.

A response to a request for references of "go read a book" is not acceptable.
It is if you're debating with someone who is obviously grossly uneducated in history like Jonno is...and you are.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The case against guns

Post by Seth » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:56 pm

Făkünamę wrote:*yawn*

I'm not submitting a research paper here for your benefit. Obviously you're either too obtuse, or simply too deliberately obtuse, to make connections on your own. A pity, but not my problem. Go read a book.
The word is not "obtuse," the words are "willful and mendacious pettifoggery."
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The case against guns

Post by Seth » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:01 pm

Collector1337 wrote:
Blind groper wrote:To Collector.

What a sizeable collection of bullshit!

There is a basic principle of logic that you seem determined to ignore. That is : comparisons should be apples with apples, not with oranges.

If you want to draw a principle related to modern western society, you must compare to modern western societies, not ancient societies, and not to non western societies. If you do otherwise, you are arguing bullcrap.

I define 'modern' as post WWII, partly because it is a sufficiently long period at 68 years, and partly because WWII was such a significant event that it changed everything.

Looking at 'civilised' western societies that have limited gun ownership (meaning that you need to pass a test to get a licence to own a sporting rifle or shotgun, and you cannot own a hand gun), we get :

Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Italy, Belgium, Sweden, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, and Iceland.

All of these nations have limited access to firearms, and not one of them has gone totalitarian.

So what you are saying is total crap!!!
Human nature never changes.
This is BG's typical mendacious pettifoggery and strawman building. When facts about human nature and history are shown to him he conveniently seeks to limit the scope of his argument in some disingenuous way to try to bolster his blather. He tries hard to ignore the entire second and third world, places like Africa where millions are genocidally murdered by despots and mobs precisely because they are not armed and cannot defend themselves, which he prefers to armed conflict for some stupid reason.

The only appropriate response to his stupid list is "Yet..."
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The case against guns

Post by Seth » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:03 pm

MrJonno wrote:
Human nature never changes.
Yeah humans like killing each other only a functional government/society can prevent it
The most pervasive purveyor of death on earth, throughout history, is "functional government."
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The case against guns

Post by Blind groper » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:34 am

The various people on this forum who find the idea of things getting different inconvenient to their prejudices are actually totally wrong.

Basic human nature does not change, true. But society does. The way people behave today is totally different to the way they behaved 1000 years ago, and is different to the way people behaved (and their attitudes, beliefs etc) pre WWII.

If you do not believe me, watch the lecture on TED by Prof. Steven Pinker on the history of violence. http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_ ... lence.html

Violence of all kinds is reducing over time. This is something that the pro-gun lobby have tried to use as an argument to say large numbers of guns do not lead to lots of murders, because the murder rate is dropping. Sadly for that argument, the murder rate is dropping irrespective of gun ownership increasing or dropping, since it is a long term societal change.

The percentage of the male populaton that is killed in war is also dropping, and very substantially. When you look to the lessons of history, it is vital that you take into account that society today is not the society of even 70 years ago, and is wildly different to the society of 1000 years ago. This is especially true when discussing violence and murders, since these have fallen dramatically.

So when some blithering idiot quotes Adolph Hitler as an 'expert' on history, and draws conclusions from what Hitler has to say, bear in mind that this "authority" had no knowledge of modern society, and any conclusions he drew was garbage in terms of the world of today.

Short answer, based on real data, is that no modern (since WWII) western society has ever, not even once, used the removal of guns as a precursor to going totalitarian. Using that mythical idea as a rationalisation for possessing and playing with lethal toys is total crap.

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Re: The case against guns

Post by Seth » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:46 am

Blind groper wrote:The various people on this forum who find the idea of things getting different inconvenient to their prejudices are actually totally wrong.

Basic human nature does not change, true. But society does. The way people behave today is totally different to the way they behaved 1000 years ago, and is different to the way people behaved (and their attitudes, beliefs etc) pre WWII.

If you do not believe me, watch the lecture on TED by Prof. Steven Pinker on the history of violence. http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_ ... lence.html

Violence of all kinds is reducing over time. This is something that the pro-gun lobby have tried to use as an argument to say large numbers of guns do not lead to lots of murders, because the murder rate is dropping. Sadly for that argument, the murder rate is dropping irrespective of gun ownership increasing or dropping, since it is a long term societal change.
Thanks for destroying your own argument. If the murder rate is dropping irrespective of the rate of gun ownership, then gun ownership is UNRELATED to the number of murders. You see, if it's unconnected to DROPS in murder rates, it's also unrelated to INCREASES in murder rates.

So, you've just proven that more gun control is unneeded because murder (including handgun murders) is both unrelated to guns and is continuing to drop. And we see no increase in gun murders going on, it's down all over. So, there's no causal connection and law-abiding citizens should be allowed to own all the handguns they like because their ownership of handguns has ZERO effect on the murder rate.

I think we're done now...finally. You can fuck off now.
The percentage of the male populaton that is killed in war is also dropping, and very substantially. When you look to the lessons of history, it is vital that you take into account that society today is not the society of even 70 years ago, and is wildly different to the society of 1000 years ago. This is especially true when discussing violence and murders, since these have fallen dramatically.

So when some blithering idiot quotes Adolph Hitler as an 'expert' on history, and draws conclusions from what Hitler has to say, bear in mind that this "authority" had no knowledge of modern society, and any conclusions he drew was garbage in terms of the world of today.

Short answer, based on real data, is that no modern (since WWII) western society has ever, not even once, used the removal of guns as a precursor to going totalitarian. Using that mythical idea as a rationalisation for possessing and playing with lethal toys is total crap.
There he goes again, zooming in the myopic lens of his intellect to exclude all facts that are contrary to his incredibly ignorant opinions and worldview.

You might want to ask the inhabitants of Rawanda or Zimbabwe about how effective and easy it is to commit genocide on disarmed populations. Then you can talk to Saddam about the Kurds, and somebody about the Tamil Tigers or any of a dozen other despots who have disarmed the populace and then murdered many of them in the last 50 years OR LESS.

Ignoramus. :fp:

And don't bother with your asinine "Oh, they aren't CIVILIZED countries like France so they don't count" horseshit.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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