Somebody who has a gun is threatening you...

[MrJonno]

Do you think that when a criminal points a gun at a cop, does the cop:

1. Put his hands up and follows the criminal's orders?

or

2. Draws and fires on the criminal pointing a gun at him immediately?

Option 1 if he wants to live

[Seth]

To Seth, who is sure he can outshoot anyone else holding a banana.

The scenario we offer is a guy pointing a gun at you, and you claim you can draw a gun from concealment, aim, fire, and kill him before his finger can move two millimetres to activate the trigger.

Pull my other leg. It plays Yankoo Doodle!

I carefully explained the facts of human physiology that make it eminently possible for a skilled shooter to draw and fire before the bad guy can shoot. It doesn't matter how many millimeters the finger has to move if it doesn't move in time. It's all about time you see...and tactics.

It take the bad guy a minimum of 1.5 seconds to perceive and react to stimuli. It takes me 0.76 seconds to draw and fire 3 rounds. Simple math there sparky. Can you do simple math?

Did you try the banana experiment? I suspect not.

[Seth]

It's curious that the most rude, aggressive, and short-tempered people in this thread are the "responsible gun owners".

That's because the hoplophobes are mindless idiots who are incapable of reason and we get very bored with their willful ignorance.

And then there's the ones who liken law-abiding gun owners to murderous thugs and other various calumnies hurled with great frequency. If you don't think that's "rude, aggressive and short-tempered" you're even stupider than I thought.

[Blind groper]

. It doesn't matter how many millimeters the finger has to move if it doesn't move in time. It's all about time you see...and tactics.

It take the bad guy a minimum of 1.5 seconds to perceive and react to stimuli. It takes me 0.76 seconds to draw and fire 3 rounds. Simple math there sparky. Can you do simple math?

You are assuming 1.5 second reaction time. Not in this case. We have a guy hyped up on adrenalin, probably scared, and pointing a gun at you with his finger quivering on the trigger. It will not be a slow reaction time, and Seth, you are now dead.

Nor do I believe your claim that you can draw a gun from concealment, aim and shoot and kill a guy in 0.76 seconds. A quick draw artist with a carefully designed holster might be able to do it, but not a gun that is tucked away out of sight.

[laklak]

At 20 feet you're probably safe anyway because most people can't hit the side of a barn. But there would be a couple of things to look for. Is the guy in a shooter's stance, both hands on the pistol, or is he waving it about or holding it sideways (people actually do that)? Is he shaking, nervous, tweaking, or is he steady and reasonably calm? If you've got a steady, calm dude in a shooter's stance aiming a Glock or Sig or big hog leg at you, probably best give him your wallet. If it's a drugged out methhead waving a Saturday Night Special around, you can probably run. Like Seth said earlier, access the situation and decide - fight or flight?

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

It's curious that the most rude, aggressive, and short-tempered people in this thread are the "responsible gun owners".

Actually, I'd say it was about 50/50.
Imo, in every single thread involving gun debate the usual contriibutors on both sides have disgraced themselves in the fashion you describe.
Some people around here need to either grow the fuck up or stay away from debates in which they can't comport themselves in a reasonable fashion.

[Tero]

Yeah they should measure your fuse before they give you the gun.

[FBM]

It's curious that the most rude, aggressive, and short-tempered people in this thread are the "responsible gun owners".

Actually, I'd say it was about 50/50.
Imo, in every single thread involving gun debate the usual contriibutors on both sides have disgraced themselves in the fashion you describe.
Some people around here need to either grow the fuck up or stay away from debates in which they can't comport themselves in a reasonable fashion.

I think the most responsible and reasonable people on both sides of the issue tend to bow out early, leaving the "lunatic fringe" elements on each extreme to carry on page after page after page, accomplishing absolutely nothing, convincing absolutely nobody...

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

It's curious that the most rude, aggressive, and short-tempered people in this thread are the "responsible gun owners".

Actually, I'd say it was about 50/50.
Imo, in every single thread involving gun debate the usual contriibutors on both sides have disgraced themselves in the fashion you describe.
Some people around here need to either grow the fuck up or stay away from debates in which they can't comport themselves in a reasonable fashion.

I think the most responsible and reasonable people on both sides of the issue tend to bow out early, leaving the "lunatic fringe" elements on each extreme to carry on page after page after page, accomplishing absolutely nothing, convincing absolutely nobody...

I reckon another fortnight of this distillation process and we'll end up with 100% proof fuck-nuttery. - That's got to be worth something. Maybe we can bottle it and sell it?

[FBM]

I reckon another fortnight of this distillation process and we'll end up with 100% proof fuck-nuttery. - That's got to be worth something. Maybe we can bottle it and sell it?

That would be like trying to sell snow to the Eskimos.

[orpheus]

It's curious that the most rude, aggressive, and short-tempered people in this thread are the "responsible gun owners".

Actually, I'd say it was about 50/50.
Imo, in every single thread involving gun debate the usual contriibutors on both sides have disgraced themselves in the fashion you describe.
Some people around here need to either grow the fuck up or stay away from debates in which they can't comport themselves in a reasonable fashion.

I think the most responsible and reasonable people on both sides of the issue tend to bow out early, leaving the "lunatic fringe" elements on each extreme to carry on page after page after page, accomplishing absolutely nothing, convincing absolutely nobody...

You may well be right. In that spirit, I'll bid adieu now. Besides, life's too short; already there are many things I want to do that I won't have time to do.

[FBM]

You may well be right. In that spirit, I'll bid adieu now. Besides, life's too short; already there are many things I want to do that I won't have time to do.

I didn't mean that as an accusation to anyone in particular, orph. Tbh, I haven't been reading these threads except to scan for personal attacks, so I have only the faintest notion of who's posting what these days. I was just speaking rhetorically based on my experience of oodles of internet arguments.

[Seth]

. It doesn't matter how many millimeters the finger has to move if it doesn't move in time. It's all about time you see...and tactics.

It take the bad guy a minimum of 1.5 seconds to perceive and react to stimuli. It takes me 0.76 seconds to draw and fire 3 rounds. Simple math there sparky. Can you do simple math?

You are assuming 1.5 second reaction time. Not in this case. We have a guy hyped up on adrenalin, probably scared, and pointing a gun at you with his finger quivering on the trigger. It will not be a slow reaction time, and Seth, you are now dead.

Physiology is physiology. All being "hyped up on adrenalin" does is make him a worse shot, it doesn't change perception or reaction time.

Nor do I believe your claim that you can draw a gun from concealment, aim and shoot and kill a guy in 0.76 seconds. A quick draw artist with a carefully designed holster might be able to do it, but not a gun that is tucked away out of sight.

See, I told you you know fuck all about handguns. Here's what the experts in quick draw do:

Watch this:

My time has been well documented. You can believe it or not. I'm fine if neither you nor any crook believes me because that just gives me even more of an advantage.

[Seth]

At 20 feet you're probably safe anyway because most people can't hit the side of a barn. But there would be a couple of things to look for. Is the guy in a shooter's stance, both hands on the pistol, or is he waving it about or holding it sideways (people actually do that)? Is he shaking, nervous, tweaking, or is he steady and reasonably calm? If you've got a steady, calm dude in a shooter's stance aiming a Glock or Sig or big hog leg at you, probably best give him your wallet. If it's a drugged out methhead waving a Saturday Night Special around, you can probably run. Like Seth said earlier, access the situation and decide - fight or flight?

Yup. The shot in the video I just referenced was kill zone at 10 YARDS...that's 30 feet. Very few common street thugs shoot anywhere near that well. They just don't have the time or means to practice enough.

I do.

[orpheus]

You may well be right. In that spirit, I'll bid adieu now. Besides, life's too short; already there are many things I want to do that I won't have time to do.

I didn't mean that as an accusation to anyone in particular, orph. Tbh, I haven't been reading these threads except to scan for personal attacks, so I have only the faintest notion of who's posting what these days. I was just speaking rhetorically based on my experience of oodles of internet arguments.

I understand, and I didn't take your words as an accusation. I think you're largely correct. Of course there are exceptions -- level-headed people who continue long into an argument. There are some of those here. (I think I'm one.) But in general you're right.

For me, as I alluded to, this particular argument in this particular venue is low on my list of priorities, and life isn't forever.

Play nice, folks!