The case against guns

[Collector1337]

What if you found out they saved 10 lives, and only got 1 killed? Would your opinion change?

When the US murder rates go down 75% to match more sane countries sure, until then its a body count

How ethnocentric of you.

What about if I'm perfectly satisfied with my country's "body count?"

[Collector1337]

Nope there is no real genuine difference in any part of the US on the availability of firearms, restrictions are obviously irrelevant if you can go 20 miles across a non guarded border and just buy a firearm

When there is a controlled border between US states and everyone requires a passport/metal detector scan like at an airport I might have an interest in such statistics

LOL!

Bases all arguments off statistics.

Upon seeing statistics he doesn't like, immediately discounts it.

Not very intellectually consistent or honest, are you?

[Blind groper]

Collector

Statistics have to be used intelligently. This requires intelligent discrimination, which is what Mr. Jonno was doing.

It is pure idiocy to grab silly statistics and apply them in situations where they are irrelevant. Gun laws, state by state, have little impact on gun crime, simply because anyone who want a gun can get one.

If there were accurate statistics on gun ownership, state by state, though, that might be meaningful. That is : the percentage of people who own a hand gun in the various states. You could then try to relate that with the murder rate, state by state, and see if there is a correlation. I have not seen any accurate statistics to show that. Perhaps I need to look harder?

[Seth]

Seth, it's never black and white. Neither are motives.

The Constitution is black and white. Absent some ACTUAL behavior on my part that shows that I cannot exercise my RKBA responsibly, I have (or should have) an unfettered right to keep and bear ANY arms that I choose in a lawful and peaceable manner. Only if I misuse or abuse that right does the government have the authority to infringe upon MY INDIVIDUAL RKBA. The government explicitly does NOT have authority to infringe upon EVERYONE'S RKBA because one, or ten, or 8000 people per year commit criminal acts with firearms.

That presumes guilt on the part of people who have shown no tendency to misuse or abuse their RKBA, which is unlawful in the US.

I would make a lousy cop. I would let the maybes go. Some trigger happy cop or holier than thou judge will eventually get them. Not me, unless they come after me personally.

The standard for the police, and the court, is "probable cause." This means that in order to arrest someone for a crime, it must be more likely than not that they committed the crime. This is just the first hurdle however. Probable cause gives the police authority to bring the person before the judge and jury, but the burden of evidence for conviction is a unanimous verdict of guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.

The maxim is that its better that 10 guilty men go free than that one innocent man be imprisoned.

[Seth]

Collector

Statistics have to be used intelligently. This requires intelligent discrimination, which is what Mr. Jonno was doing.

It is pure idiocy to grab silly statistics and apply them in situations where they are irrelevant. Gun laws, state by state, have little impact on gun crime, simply because anyone who want a gun can get one.

If there were accurate statistics on gun ownership, state by state, though, that might be meaningful. That is : the percentage of people who own a hand gun in the various states. You could then try to relate that with the murder rate, state by state, and see if there is a correlation. I have not seen any accurate statistics to show that. Perhaps I need to look harder?

We don't allow the government to gather such information because we don't trust it to use that information only for legitimate purposes.

Every time guns are registered anywhere, they are eventually seized by the government merely because it can do so BECAUSE it has the necessary information.

Every. Single. Time.

Without fail.

That's why we will not tolerate gun registration or gun owner licensing.

[Tero]

Let's face it, you don't trust the Gubment to do anything.

All these Sethtistics are useless as we never have a gunkess control state/country to compare to. Everything else would have to be the same.

[Blind groper]

Seth is also wrong.
Every other western first world nation has gun laws that permit some kinds of gun ownership. Here in my very civilised New Zealand (and, I know, in Australia) law abiding people can earn a gun license and buy sporting rifles, shotguns and ammunition. The governments of all nations that do that, have detailed records of each and every person with a gun license. Not one single such government has ever, not ever, gone out and confiscated all those firearms.

So Seth (how unusual) is talking bullshit.

[Collector1337]

Seth is also wrong.
Every other western first world nation has gun laws that permit some kinds of gun ownership. Here in my very civilised New Zealand (and, I know, in Australia) law abiding people can earn a gun license and buy sporting rifles, shotguns and ammunition. The governments of all nations that do that, have detailed records of each and every person with a gun license. Not one single such government has ever, not ever, gone out and confiscated all those firearms.

So Seth (how unusual) is talking bullshit.

How convenient you totally leave out the massive confiscation of pistols.

Yep. Confiscation never happened.

[Collector1337]

Let's face it, you don't trust the Gubment to do anything.

Why should I trust the government?

[Tero]

Let's face it, you don't trust the Gubment to do anything.

Why should I trust the government?

I dunno, maybe your house is on fire? Who you gonna call?

[Collector1337]

Let's face it, you don't trust the Gubment to do anything.

Why should I trust the government?

I dunno, maybe your house is on fire? Who you gonna call?

Using government services and trusting government aren't the same thing.

There's no guarantee they show up in time to save you or your house. So, what is it you're trusting them with exactly?

[Tero]

I trust the NSF to fund research from basic to applied, including some with no practical use.

The polymerase chain reaction was invented in industry, but required 20 years of Gubment funded work prior to that.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National ... Foundation

[Seth]

Seth is also wrong.
Every other western first world nation has gun laws that permit some kinds of gun ownership. Here in my very civilised New Zealand (and, I know, in Australia) law abiding people can earn a gun license and buy sporting rifles, shotguns and ammunition. The governments of all nations that do that, have detailed records of each and every person with a gun license. Not one single such government has ever, not ever, gone out and confiscated all those firearms.

So Seth (how unusual) is talking bullshit.

I didn't say they confiscated ALL firearms, I said that gun registration has always resulted in gun confiscations, and that's true. Just look at what happened in Australia when they banned pistols and semi-automatic rifles.

QED.

This of course doesn't apply to countries that have NEVER permitted open and free gun ownership, like China. But even in China they still have gun crime using...wait for it...stolen guns. Usually stolen from the military.

[Seth]

I trust the NSF to fund research from basic to applied, including some with no practical use.

The polymerase chain reaction was invented in industry, but required 20 years of Gubment funded work prior to that.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National ... Foundation

No, it didn't REQUIRE government-funded research, it was the PRODUCT of government-funded research and there's absolutely no evidence that it wouldn't have been discovered earlier, or more cheaply, through free-market economics...like IBM did to the personal computer.

You can't bootstrap an argument like that by claiming that some invention or advancement in science is NECESSARILY or EXCLUSIVELY the result of government-funded research. Most of the great inventions in the world are NOT the product of government research...like the telephone and light bulb.

[Jason]

Firearm laws in Australia are ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politi ... rearm_laws