Four year old shoots father dead.

[Coito ergo sum]

I should lose my rights because of idiots. That makes so much sense.

I suppose I should lose my freedom of speech too from idiots who yell fire in a crowded theater.

Why just punish the perpetrator when you can punish everyone! Right?!

Your rights.. your rights.. blah blah blah...

You work for the government, right?

[Coito ergo sum]

I should lose my rights because of idiots. That makes so much sense.

Fuck you. You might think differently when it's someone you love that's accidentally shot by a child. Or, when a child you love accidentally shoots someone. And that doesn't mean your negligence would have to be at fault, it could be the negligence of someone else. And, if something like that wouldn't change your mind, you're a shit excuse for a human.

FFS where's the middle ground here?

Can neither of you agree on practical restrictions on gun ownership and use, including effective enforcement, to limit the incidence of criminal use, pathological misuse, and accidental discharge?

Riv, the gun lovers say ANY restrictions are just slippery slope and would happily see them all removed. 'Cause, you know, common sense is good enough.

How does that stop the non-gun lovers from advocating less than a total ban?

[Kristie]

How does that stop the non-gun lovers from advocating less than a total ban?

I don't think you're reading posts accurately.
I haven't seen any of the US members advocating for a total ban. There may be 1 or 2 members here wanting that, but I'm pretty sure they're not even American.

[MrJonno]

I have a problem with this word 'rights'.

Such an English concept....Magna Carta....English Bill of Rights...wut wut and tut tut...antiquated nonsense.

We should change the name of the UN Declaration on Human Rights to UN Declaration on Human Licenses and Permits.

Rights were historically about protecting majorities from minorities (normally to be replaced by slightly bigger minorities, ie lords instead of the king), and are somewhat dated in the days of democracy

If you are a minority and everyone hates you then you don't need rights you need to find somewhere else to live

[Coito ergo sum]

How does that stop the non-gun lovers from advocating less than a total ban?

I don't think you're reading posts accurately.
I haven't seen any of the US members advocating for a total ban. There may be 1 or 2 members here wanting that, but I'm pretty sure they're not even American.

So, then why was Collector such an awful person? You're not advocating a gun ban, and no matter how much registration, background checks, limits on high magazines and assault rifles, if people can still have guns in their houses then a four year old might be able to get ahold of it, especially with a negligent owner.

I think that is where the crossed signals happened. By your reaction, calling him an awful human being, it IMPLIES that you must be seeking a gun ban, because by advocating only "regulation" you aren't solving the problem of 4 year olds having access to guns by mistake. Either a gun ban, or a near total gun ban where infinitessimally few people have guns.

Right? I mean - if all you're advocating is (a) registration, (b) licensing/permitting, and (c) limits on the kind of guns that can be owned -- we can't even be reasonably assured that this four year old wouldn't have gotten ahold of the same gun and done the same thing.

[Coito ergo sum]

I have a problem with this word 'rights'.

Such an English concept....Magna Carta....English Bill of Rights...wut wut and tut tut...antiquated nonsense.

We should change the name of the UN Declaration on Human Rights to UN Declaration on Human Licenses and Permits.

Rights were historically about protecting majorities from minorities (normally to be replaced by slightly bigger minorities, ie lords instead of the king), and are somewhat dated in the days of democracy

If you are a minority and everyone hates you then you don't need rights you need to find somewhere else to live

LOL - I'll tell that to the African-Americans in the Civil Rights Movement. You'dve fit right in with the southern whites of the 1950s and early 60s. They were telling the blacks to find somewhere else to live too....

[laklak]

If you are a minority and everyone hates you then you don't need rights you need to find somewhere else to live

Damn right! Send them jive talkin' monkeys back to Africa! Bus them beaners back to Mexico, we can mow our own lawns. And them slopes? Back to China, why you think they're called the "Yellow Peril?" Send those Satan worshiping atheists to Sweden, or better yet just kill 'em. Goddamned welfare Democrats, ruining our Great Country, ship 'em to England.

By God and Jesus, America was a white, Christian, God fearing country and it will be again!

[Kristie]

How does that stop the non-gun lovers from advocating less than a total ban?

I don't think you're reading posts accurately.
I haven't seen any of the US members advocating for a total ban. There may be 1 or 2 members here wanting that, but I'm pretty sure they're not even American.

So, then why was Collector such an awful person? You're not advocating a gun ban, and no matter how much registration, background checks, limits on high magazines and assault rifles, if people can still have guns in their houses then a four year old might be able to get ahold of it, especially with a negligent owner.

I think that is where the crossed signals happened. By your reaction, calling him an awful human being, it IMPLIES that you must be seeking a gun ban, because by advocating only "regulation" you aren't solving the problem of 4 year olds having access to guns by mistake. Either a gun ban, or a near total gun ban where infinitessimally few people have guns.

Right? I mean - if all you're advocating is (a) registration, (b) licensing/permitting, and (c) limits on the kind of guns that can be owned -- we can't even be reasonably assured that this four year old wouldn't have gotten ahold of the same gun and done the same thing.

There's no need to assume anything when I've stated my opinions clearly numerous times.
I'm advocating a bit more than what you listed above, but nowhere near a total gun ban. I'm advocating background check, mandatory gun safes and that those safes be used, and tougher consequences for cases of negligence such as the one in the article.
No, that probably won't stop all shootings by children, but I'm positive it would help. Just because certain regulations won't stop all accidents doesn't mean they should be implemented.

[Coito ergo sum]

If you are a minority and everyone hates you then you don't need rights you need to find somewhere else to live

Damn right! Send them jive talkin' monkeys back to Africa! Bus them beaners back to Mexico, we can mow our own lawns. And them slopes? Back to China, why you think they're called the "Yellow Peril?" Send those Satan worshiping atheists to Sweden, or better yet just kill 'em. Goddamned welfare Democrats, ruining our Great Country, ship 'em to England.

By God and Jesus, America was a white, Christian, God fearing country and it will be again!

Hey -- I do mow my own lawn. And, I'm white as copy paper.

[Coito ergo sum]

There's no need to assume anything when I've stated my opinions clearly numerous times.
I'm advocating a bit more than what you listed above, but nowhere near a total gun ban. I'm advocating background check, mandatory gun safes and that those safes be used, and tougher consequences for cases of negligence such as the one in the article.
No, that probably won't stop all shootings by children, but I'm positive it would help. Just because certain regulations won't stop all accidents doesn't mean they should be implemented.

Sure, but I don't get why Collector was such an awful person. He just wouldn't go as far as you in your regulations. Neither of you would support what would guarantee this never happens. He has his view and you have yours.

[laklak]

Hey -- I do mow my own lawn. And, I'm white as copy paper.

Then you're a goddamned Patriot, son! Keep up the good work.

[Kristie]

There's no need to assume anything when I've stated my opinions clearly numerous times.
I'm advocating a bit more than what you listed above, but nowhere near a total gun ban. I'm advocating background check, mandatory gun safes and that those safes be used, and tougher consequences for cases of negligence such as the one in the article.
No, that probably won't stop all shootings by children, but I'm positive it would help. Just because certain regulations won't stop all accidents doesn't mean they should be implemented.

Sure, but I don't get why Collector was such an awful person. He just wouldn't go as far as you in your regulations. Neither of you would support what would guarantee this never happens. He has his view and you have yours.

It's not just what he said in that one series of posts. It's all the posts I've read of his. He's as bad as Seth and GS. They all put their rights to own as many of what ever type of gun they want, without regulations, above the safety of others. Their twisted views make me sick.
I liked that this article was posted in the News section, and I thought maybe, possibly it won't go the way of the Gun Club. I thought there was a chance that some of the people that avoid the Gun Clun could have a chance to discuss done of the other aspects of this article, like I started to do. When it was moved, I un-hid this forum just to check on this one thread in the hope that it wouldn't go all 'collector' and 'Seth'. Sadly, but not surprisingly, I was disappointed. I am going to re-hide this forum and will not be posting again.

[MrJonno]

LOL - I'll tell that to the African-Americans in the Civil Rights Movement. You'dve fit right in with the southern whites of the 1950s and early 60s. They were telling the blacks to find somewhere else to live too.

I would strongly argue the US was not a democracy in the 1950/60's due to the practical abilities for blacks to vote. UK the certainly wasn't until women get the votes in the 1920's.

When you have universal suffrage the concepts of rights somewhat changes. If you are going to have them then they should be considered as the minimum standard of living a society ensures its citizens have and I would certainly include a minimum wage, right to healthcare alongside right to vote, freedom of belief (not religion which is a stupid concept) , maximised freedom of speech (but not unlimited)

Regardless no human is born with them instead society(government) have a responsible to ensure this minimum standard of life occurs

[Collector1337]

There's no need to assume anything when I've stated my opinions clearly numerous times.
I'm advocating a bit more than what you listed above, but nowhere near a total gun ban. I'm advocating background check, mandatory gun safes and that those safes be used, and tougher consequences for cases of negligence such as the one in the article.
No, that probably won't stop all shootings by children, but I'm positive it would help. Just because certain regulations won't stop all accidents doesn't mean they should be implemented.

Anything else, nanny?

What are your specific laws and how do you plan to enforce them?

[Collector1337]

Their twisted views make me sick.

Your twisted, nanny state views make me sick.

I am going to re-hide this forum and will not be posting again.