Four year old shoots father dead.

[laklak]

Of course the problem, laklak, is that all gun owners think they're responsible. Well, not all. I'm sure some wild-ass immature jerks know they're irresponsible and don't give a damn. But let's put it this way: the vast majority of gun owners claim to be responsible. If pressed, they'd even give assurances like those you gave above, and they'd even be sincere about it. And the problem is that of this vast number who claim to be responsible, there is a subset that simply is not.

How are we to know until it's too late?

I don't know, Orph. I can't speak for others, but when I say the guns are under lock and key that is exactly what I mean. When I say I will not have an unsecured, loaded weapon lying about the home that is exactly what I mean. Doesn't matter whether I'm here by myself, or friends are over, or whether I'm sober or drunk, angry or happy - there is not and never will be a time when you can walk into my home and pick up a loaded OR unloaded weapon.

I realize I'm perilously close to a "no true responsible gun owner" argument, but safe storage of weapons is a primary requirement for responsible ownership. If someone leaves an unsecured, loaded weapon lying about, particularly where a child can get to it, then they cannot be considered responsible; in fact that single action proves the opposite.

If I made the rules there would be severe penalties for the gun owner. If you leave a loaded gun out and a kid gets hold of it and kills someone I'd charge you with negligent homicide at the very least. Make leaving a weapon where a kid can get it a felony, and charge him with felony murder. See how many people get 30 years in the state pen before the morons start to take notice.

It's assholes like these two, both the gun owner and the father, that make it so difficult for those of us that truly are responsible. There have been several of these cases recently and all have one common factor - a fucking idiot gun owner.

[orpheus]

Of course the problem, laklak, is that all gun owners think they're responsible. Well, not all. I'm sure some wild-ass immature jerks know they're irresponsible and don't give a damn. But let's put it this way: the vast majority of gun owners claim to be responsible. If pressed, they'd even give assurances like those you gave above, and they'd even be sincere about it. And the problem is that of this vast number who claim to be responsible, there is a subset that simply is not.

How are we to know until it's too late?

I don't know, Orph. I can't speak for others, but when I say the guns are under lock and key that is exactly what I mean. When I say I will not have an unsecured, loaded weapon lying about the home that is exactly what I mean. Doesn't matter whether I'm here by myself, or friends are over, or whether I'm sober or drunk, angry or happy - there is not and never will be a time when you can walk into my home and pick up a loaded OR unloaded weapon.

I realize I'm perilously close to a "no true responsible gun owner" argument, but safe storage of weapons is a primary requirement for responsible ownership. If someone leaves an unsecured, loaded weapon lying about, particularly where a child can get to it, then they cannot be considered responsible; in fact that single action proves the opposite.

If I made the rules there would be severe penalties for the gun owner. If you leave a loaded gun out and a kid gets hold of it and kills someone I'd charge you with negligent homicide at the very least. Make leaving a weapon where a kid can get it a felony, and charge him with felony murder. See how many people get 30 years in the state pen before the morons start to take notice.

It's assholes like these two, both the gun owner and the father, that make it so difficult for those of us that truly are responsible. There have been several of these cases recently and all have one common factor - a fucking idiot gun owner.

Would that all gun owners were like you, laklak. The world would be a better place.

I don't think it's exactly a "no true responsible gun owner" fallacy, since there is such a thing as a responsible gun owner, and you're one, precisely because of what you just said. The problem is that people self-identify as such - and with so many people, there are bound to be some who say they are & think they are, but aren't. And I'm sure there is a spectrum: some people take all the precautions you list, 100% of the time. Some may slip up now and again with one thing or another. Some take only some precautions. Some aren't as consistent. Some are sloppy as hell and can delude themselves that they're responsible right up to the point where something tragic happens. Some are exactly that sloppy and tragedy never happens. They're damned lucky, but they too think of themselves as responsible - and nothing has disabused them of that belief. All get to call themselves "responsible gun owners". And probably truly, honestly believe it.

It's a problem, to say the least.

[Jason]

I keep two 00 shells and one rifled slug on a shelf next to my 12 gauge semi-auto at the foot of my bed. Am I irresponsible?

Maybe.

[Warren Dew]

How drearily predictable

My 4 year old would not have shot me, since I would not have visited a gun owner with him. I would have gone alone.

According to some of our friends here, many gun owners in the States refuse to disclose that they own a gun - and proudly say they will never cooperate with registration - so you might not know. And as we see time and time again, incidents like this do happen. Yet every gun owner insists that they themselves are "responsible gun owners", so we can trust them.

The 4 year old's father was the gun owner's former roommate. I'd be surprised if he didn't know that his former roommate was in the habit of leaving loaded guns out.

Plus, you know, once he got inside the house, he could see the gun, just like the 4 year old could.

[laklak]

I keep two 00 shells and one rifled slug on a shelf next to my 12 gauge semi-auto at the foot of my bed. Am I irresponsible?

Maybe.

Gun's not loaded, and doubtful a 4 year old would know how or even have the physical ability to load, cock and fire a 12 gauge. What's irresponsible about that?

I keep a 9mm in a digital pistol safe, in the nightstand. Been thinking about getting one of the biometric ones now that prices are coming down.

[orpheus]

I keep two 00 shells and one rifled slug on a shelf next to my 12 gauge semi-auto at the foot of my bed. Am I irresponsible?

Maybe.

Gun's not loaded, and doubtful a 4 year old would know how or even have the physical ability to load, cock and fire a 12 gauge. What's irresponsible about that?

Well, someone else could. It's not only 4 year olds one should consider when considering gun safety, right?

I'm puzzled, laklak, after what you posted above, why you would consider this responsible?

[orpheus]

How drearily predictable

My 4 year old would not have shot me, since I would not have visited a gun owner with him. I would have gone alone.

According to some of our friends here, many gun owners in the States refuse to disclose that they own a gun - and proudly say they will never cooperate with registration - so you might not know. And as we see time and time again, incidents like this do happen. Yet every gun owner insists that they themselves are "responsible gun owners", so we can trust them.

The 4 year old's father was the gun owner's former roommate. I'd be surprised if he didn't know that his former roommate was in the habit of leaving loaded guns out.

Plus, you know, once he got inside the house, he could see the gun, just like the 4 year old could.

Should that absolve the owner of responsibility?

[laklak]

I keep two 00 shells and one rifled slug on a shelf next to my 12 gauge semi-auto at the foot of my bed. Am I irresponsible?

Maybe.

Gun's not loaded, and doubtful a 4 year old would know how or even have the physical ability to load, cock and fire a 12 gauge. What's irresponsible about that?

Well, someone else could. It's not only 4 year olds one should consider when considering gun safety, right?

I'm puzzled, laklak, after what you posted above, why you would consider this responsible?

The shells are on a shelf so the gun isn't loaded, the worst that's going to happen is someone drops it on their toe. Fakuname lives on the back side of nowhere with a lot of bears and stuff, probably needs a weapon around.

When we lived outside Mountain City, Georgia, we lived a couple of miles from fuck all, surrounded on 3 sides by state and national forest and the nearest neighbor halfway down the mountain. There were a tons of bears around, bobcats, snakes and the odd cougar. I kept a rifle in the kitchen, loaded but no shell in the chamber. It's not a good idea to go tramping around in early spring without a weapon, bears are notoriously cranky when they wake up after hibernating, particularly females with cubs. If we'd ever had kids come over (I try to avoid them if at all possible) the gun would have been locked up. Gun ownership up there approached 100%, literally everyone owned guns. There is a different attitude towards them then there is back here in the civilized flatlands.

[Jason]

Lak nailed it.

'Responsibility' isn't a set of commandments - it changes with context.

[orpheus]

Lak nailed it.

'Responsibility' isn't a set of commandments - it changes with context.

Ah, ok. Thanks for clarifying. I didn't realize the circumstances of where you lived. (You've probably talked about it before; sorry I missed or forgot it.)

[Jason]

No, it's OK. I put my post like that deliberately in the hopes that this subject would be covered.

[Coito ergo sum]

I have a problem with this word 'rights'.

Such an English concept....Magna Carta....English Bill of Rights...wut wut and tut tut...antiquated nonsense.

We should change the name of the UN Declaration on Human Rights to UN Declaration on Human Licenses and Permits.

[Coito ergo sum]

Lego.

So cruel

Lego: A tool for finding the soles of feet in the dark.

[Coito ergo sum]

I should lose my rights because of idiots. That makes so much sense.

Fuck you. You might think differently when it's someone you love that's accidentally shot by a child. Or, when a child you love accidentally shoots someone. And that doesn't mean your negligence would have to be at fault, it could be the negligence of someone else. And, if something like that wouldn't change your mind, you're a shit excuse for a human.

FFS where's the middle ground here?

Can neither of you agree on practical restrictions on gun ownership and use, including effective enforcement, to limit the incidence of criminal use, pathological misuse, and accidental discharge?

That is what I was thinking.

Four year old shoots someone in a tragic accident and we have to what? Ban every gun?

[Kristie]

I should lose my rights because of idiots. That makes so much sense.

Fuck you. You might think differently when it's someone you love that's accidentally shot by a child. Or, when a child you love accidentally shoots someone. And that doesn't mean your negligence would have to be at fault, it could be the negligence of someone else. And, if something like that wouldn't change your mind, you're a shit excuse for a human.

FFS where's the middle ground here?

Can neither of you agree on practical restrictions on gun ownership and use, including effective enforcement, to limit the incidence of criminal use, pathological misuse, and accidental discharge?

That is what I was thinking.

Four year old shoots someone in a tragic accident and we have to what? Ban every gun?

When have I ever said 'ban every gun'? Never! I have never said that!