All is not well in the UK's Socialist Utopia

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The only way someone should be defending themselves is getting away from the situation,

Bullshit. You're either trolling or living in a bell jar.

Worked plenty of times for my ancestors.

But the scenario as written is absurd. It's absolutist without allowing for circumstances. In other words, bullshit.

[Jason]

Just remember to serpentine when you're fleeing that gun toting assailant and don't do a perfect sine wave.

[MrJonno]

Just remember to serpentine when you're fleeing that gun toting assailant and don't do a perfect sine wave.

Your every day scenario?, get 2 metres from the gunman with current population density in a city you will probably have a couple of other people between you and the gun man so you are out of the killzone. Then again I suppose some handguns can probably shoot through 2 people and get the 3rd but I'm sure Seth would know more about that than I would

More sensibly if you are a gun man, walk up to the person you want to shoot who almost certainly will be in a crowd, shoot him no one will notice and walk off. No nasty chase and you will be ok until the police see you on CCTV and just arrest your arse

[Rum]

'Self defence' is not going 'around bashing up people you think may be 'bad' guys' it is the ability to defend yourself should you be attacked. More importantly perhaps having the skills potentially gives you more confidence to stand up for yourself or just to develop confidence.

Nobody as far as I can see is promoting vigilantism.

The only way someone should be defending themselves is getting away from the situation, if and only if any lessons encourage the minimum level of violence to this I might accept this but if at any point it turns into how to win a fight that it becomes extremely suspect. I'm also a bit concerned about having martial art skills = makes you more confident to stand up for yourself, what exactly do you mean by that?

I'm not sure what you are puzzled by. We don't live in the egalitarian, peaceful and tranquil world many of us might like. People are often aggressive, belligerent, difficult and irrational and there is nothing wrong with being prepared to deal with situations where you have to deal with such matters. Personally I, like you, would prefer to walk away from them. I see nothing inherently 'brave' or manly or some such notion about confronting aggression and feeling the need to 'win' in some ego driven way. But frankly sometimes you have little or no choice. I would like my kids to be able to have the confidence to deal with that sort of thing. My son (now grown up) went to judo classes in part to help him develop that sort of confidence, which he has by the bucket load.

[Jason]

'Self defence' is not going 'around bashing up people you think may be 'bad' guys' it is the ability to defend yourself should you be attacked. More importantly perhaps having the skills potentially gives you more confidence to stand up for yourself or just to develop confidence.

Nobody as far as I can see is promoting vigilantism.

The only way someone should be defending themselves is getting away from the situation, if and only if any lessons encourage the minimum level of violence to this I might accept this but if at any point it turns into how to win a fight that it becomes extremely suspect. I'm also a bit concerned about having martial art skills = makes you more confident to stand up for yourself, what exactly do you mean by that?

I'm not sure what you are puzzled by. We don't live in the egalitarian, peaceful and tranquil world many of us might like. People are often aggressive, belligerent, difficult and irrational and there is nothing wrong with being prepared to deal with situations where you have to deal with such matters. Personally I, like you, would prefer to walk away from them. I see nothing inherently 'brave' or manly or some such notion about confronting aggression and feeling the need to 'win' in some ego driven way. But frankly sometimes you have little or no choice. I would like my kids to be able to have the confidence to deal with that sort of thing. My son (now grown up) went to judo classes in part to help him develop that sort of confidence, which he has by the bucket load.

Exactly. Retreat when it's prudent. Be prepared to defend yourself when it isn't.

[MrJonno]

If you son was being bullied at school and had the choice between hitting the bully back or being able to go and report it to the teacher what would you tell them to do?

If someone is put in a headlock (not your every day situation) and knows how to get out of it, knock the bully to the floor and then go and get the authorities then no problem, what I don't want to see it being seen as a good thing to teach the bully a lesson he won't forget that's the laws job not anyone else's

[cronus]

If you see life as a brawl you'll teach your kids to fight. It's the wrongAmerican way and so many Englishmen(and fine 'mericans) who should know better have been stockholmed into it. Can only lead to bad things.

[Rum]

If you son was being bullied at school and had the choice between hitting the bully back or being able to go and report it to the teacher what would you tell them to do?

If someone is put in a headlock (not your every day situation) and knows how to get out of it, knock the bully to the floor and then go and get the authorities then no problem, what I don't want to see it being seen as a good thing to teach the bully a lesson he won't forget that's the laws job not anyone else's

Well, report the bully to the teacher of course.

But if the kid was waiting for him on the way home I would want him to be able to look after himself.

[Jason]

If you son was being bullied at school and had the choice between hitting the bully back or being able to go and report it to the teacher what would you tell them to do?

If someone is put in a headlock (not your every day situation) and knows how to get out of it, knock the bully to the floor and then go and get the authorities then no problem, what I don't want to see it being seen as a good thing to teach the bully a lesson he won't forget that's the laws job not anyone else's

Personal anecdote time!

When I was in highschool I was still trying to be a goody christian (Jehovah's Witness variety is explicitly non-violent) and was bullied pretty badly mostly because I refused to fight back.. until one day in class one of the biggest bullies was talking shit to me and I had enough so I told him to shut the fuck up or put up. On the way out of the classroom I was chatting with my friends when I was hit by a sudden blinding pain - the bully had waited just outside the door and punched me in the eye as I exited. I snapped. I don't remember exacty what happened, but when I regained my senses I was pounding his head with my fist. The teacher, who knew about the bullying but did nothing, shouted at me to stop. I didn't. The teacher tackled me knocking me face first into the brick wall and while I was stunned from that the bully took the opportunity to come over and get a few cheap shots in.. we were both suspended for two weeks. The principle didn't give a shit about the bullying, neither did the teacher, but when I came back after suspension nobody messed with me again. Even the bully was quiet when I passed him in the hall.

Point is that the authority figures often don't give a rats ass.

[MrJonno]

If the kid is surrounded by the bully mates and can't avoid him sure getting all karate kid on him might be necessary but that's a pretty Hollywood scenario. All the movies are normally along the lines of being bullied learn to fight back is not a good lesson. Normally the victim beats the bully up and all his mates go cool respect him and everyone goes happy into the sunset.
It's just sheer bollocks

[Jason]

Meh. It isn't bollocks. I lived it.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It's just sheer bollocks

Yes, you're fairytale scenarios certainly are.

[MrJonno]

Point is that the authority figures often don't give a rats ass.

Authorities don't give a rats ass = parents sueing the authorities and making lots of money. If a teacher sees two people fighting most of the time they aren't going to give a shit who started it and most the time thats going to be the right decision

[Jason]

Maybe in the land of fairytale litigation is a solution. The real world is rarely like that in these kinds of scenarios.

[MrJonno]

Maybe in the land of fairytale litigation is a solution. The real world is rarely like that in these kinds of scenarios.

Sueing seems to be quite common, the government should also have the ability to shutdown a school if it doesn't do anything about it, but if should still be child tells teacher, parents tell teacher, parents threaten legal action with teacher, then kid beats bully up