All is not well in the UK's Socialist Utopia

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Well, you find that rational world you let us now, m'kay?

Will do, but I suspect not a world but rather an oasis, or perhaps a mirage, perhaps even just some fake plastic palm trees from a 80's disco that someone had chucked out.

I haven't found anything close that was actually a functional society. The closest was some commune-type places that were actually propped up by outside sources. Heaven's Gate type groups.

Well yes. If people have hard-wired ways of reacting based on things like fight or flight then obviously all group dynamics are based on submission and domination and the conflict between those two positions so it's inherent, it's a biological feature rather than an ideological bug.

Biology drives ideology.

[Coito ergo sum]

Same thing with the US NRA, except it's also an advocate for lawful armed self-defense.

Thats a big different, no one should be advocating unarmed self defence never mind armed

People should definitely be advocating unarmed self-defense. If a person lives in a bad neighborhood of London or Liverpool, they should be encouraged to take reasonable steps to protect themselves. Lock doors and window, protect their valuables, learn self-awareness and awareness of surroundings, and train in some measure of defense method. Just some basic techniques can help people keep from getting taken advantage of or killed.



Your view on this is very bad social policy, defeatist, craven, and horrible advice for individuals. The effect and consequences of policy like you advocate would be to create a nation of victims. Sure, it's easier for law enforcement, because they can just let crimes happen and come and clean up afterwards, hopefully tracking down the perpetrator. But, what you advocate does not help people who are attacked keep from being injured or killed, or robbed.

[MrJonno]

The effect and consequences of policy like you advocate would be to create a nation of victims

No it creates a nation of people who go out of their way to avoid conflict and if its absolutely needed leave it to the professionals who do it all day long

[Gawdzilla Sama]

MrJonno, you will have to remove the killer ape from the humans before that will work. G'luck with that.

[MrJonno]

MrJonno, you will have to remove the killer ape from the humans before that will work. G'luck with that.

Nah just their external claws (ie guns and knives) and the whole it works quite well.

The country needs millions of teenagers who are experts in 'self-defence' like a bullet in the head

[Coito ergo sum]

The effect and consequences of policy like you advocate would be to create a nation of victims

No it creates a nation of people who go out of their way to avoid conflict and if its absolutely needed leave it to the professionals who do it all day long

The professionals aren't generally around to handle it at the time a woman needs to palm an attacker's nose or give him a chop to the throat. These are techniques that require training. Like anything else, like a sport, to be able to confidently handle it, a person ought to have some practice. One needs training to perform the Heimlich Maneuver. The same goes for a woman using techniques to extricate herself from an assaulter.

[Coito ergo sum]

MrJonno, you will have to remove the killer ape from the humans before that will work. G'luck with that.

Nah just their external claws (ie guns and knives) and the whole it works quite well.

The country needs millions of teenagers who are experts in 'self-defence' like a bullet in the head

Generally, those that are instructed in self-defense are also the ones who will be responsible with its use. Meatheads that train UFC and MMA style for sport are more likely to use it in a bar fight.

Your "works well" assessment is really just stating that nobody is around to complain. Your policy would create a flock of sheep. Sure, some sheep now and again will be grabbed by wolves, but better to rely on anonymity and probability and hope to not be the one sheep that gets grabbed right? Teaching the sheep to fend off a wolf is the problem - public policy by Mr. Jonno.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

MrJonno, you will have to remove the killer ape from the humans before that will work. G'luck with that.

Nah just their external claws (ie guns and knives) and the whole it works quite well.

Robust evidence required.

The country needs millions of teenagers who are experts in 'self-defence' like a bullet in the head

Nicely mixed metaphor that doesn't help your case.

[MrJonno]

Your "works well" assessment is really just stating that nobody is around to complain. Your policy would create a flock of sheep. Sure, some sheep now and again will be grabbed by wolves, but better to rely on anonymity and probability and hope to not be the one sheep that gets grabbed right? Teaching the sheep to fend off a wolf is the problem - public policy by Mr. Jonno

Humans are closer to ants not sheep, bloody useless on their own but when working in mass with specialised roles tend to do ok, and course its a statistics game if a mafia hitman kicks your door in and plans to assassinate you I'm sure your personal survival would be enhanced by having an AK47 by your bedside but the way to really enhance your survival is to make sure there are less mafia hitmen around.

Another problem with the sheep analogy is they don't randomly turn into wolves after a bad day at the office, the whole moronic concept of the law abiding citizen (sheep) needing to be protected from bad criminals (wolves) is just silly as often they are basically the same people

[Coito ergo sum]

Your "works well" assessment is really just stating that nobody is around to complain. Your policy would create a flock of sheep. Sure, some sheep now and again will be grabbed by wolves, but better to rely on anonymity and probability and hope to not be the one sheep that gets grabbed right? Teaching the sheep to fend off a wolf is the problem - public policy by Mr. Jonno

Humans are closer to ants not sheep, bloody useless on their own but when working in mass with specialised roles tend to do ok, and course its a statistics game if a mafia hitman kicks your door in and plans to assassinate you I'm sure your personal survival would be enhanced by having an AK47 by your bedside but the way to really enhance your survival is to make sure there are less mafia hitmen around.

Another problem with the sheep analogy is they don't randomly turn into wolves after a bad day at the office, the whole moronic concept of the law abiding citizen (sheep) needing to be protected from bad criminals (wolves) is just silly as often they are basically the same people

All the more reason for the 120 pound female to train a little bit, in case one of the people she can't identify ahead of time as a threat decides to jump her. It is inarguable that training for self-defense works. If someone attacks you, you can react much quicker if you've trained your mind and body to react, and if you've got a built in response, like to jab to the throat or hold keys a certain way to use a weapon, or knee someone in the nuts. That's the whole idea of training a soldier or training a police officer -- they get better and more accurate, faster, and more competent with some training. So too for a woman who may wish to have a fighting chance to get out of trouble. But, by all means, advocate to take that away from her.

[MrJonno]

It is inarguable that training for self-defense works

I'm sure there are times it works, but that doesn't change the fact if you go around prepared for a fight you are more likely to get into one which instead you should be aiming to avoid one. What's better walk home through a dodgy area trained in self defence , or just not getting yourself into that situation in the first place


Does matter so much if a soldier goes berserk as long as they as far away as possible from me when they do it and in the middle of a warzone

[Coito ergo sum]

It is inarguable that training for self-defense works

I'm sure there are times it works, but that doesn't change the fact if you go around prepared for a fight you are more likely to get into one which instead you should be aiming to avoid one. What's better walk home through a dodgy area trained in self defence , or just not getting yourself into that situation in the first place


Does matter so much if a soldier goes berserk as long as they as far away as possible from me when they do it and in the middle of a warzone

We will need evidence for this. Criminals look for the unaware, those that look easily attacked -- the low hanging fruit, as it were. As between folks who seem prepared, alert, aware -- holding their back properly -- key in hand and at the ready -- they won't be attacked. And, I've yet to see any evidence at all that someone who is prepared for a fight is more likely to start one. That's a fine assertion, but unless you have some evidence for it, I think it is properly discounted.

You then bring up a nonsensical false dilemma. What's better, (a) walking through a dodgy area trained in self defense, or (B) just not getting yourself into that situation? How about, doing one's best to avoid getting into that situation AND being trained in self-defense. Being trained in self-defense does not mean one is more likely to walk down dark alleys with $100 bills pinned to one's jumper. Self-defense courses also tend to advise people on how to avoid confrontations in the first place -- that's a big part of being trained for self-defense. People need training in that too, because some folks out there think that because they should be able to walk through the dark alley naked and holding gold bars in each hand that they can do so. Some people need to be trained to be more aware of their surroundings and what to look for in assessing whether an area is, in fact, a dodgy area.

Also, some folks don't have much of a choice but to walk in dodgy areas, because they may live in them.

Being trained, also, doesn't mean one is more likely to "go bezerk." Where do you get this stuff?

[MrJonno]

Self-defense courses also tend to advise people on how to avoid confrontations in the first place

They may well do but no one goes to a self defence class to learn how to avoid confrontation they go there to learn how to break things. Change self defence to personal safety and I might be more sympathetic to the idea

[Coito ergo sum]

Self-defense courses also tend to advise people on how to avoid confrontations in the first place

They may well do but no one goes to a self defence class to learn how to avoid confrontation they go there to learn how to break things. Change self defence to personal safety and I might be more sympathetic to the idea

False. Completely and utterly false. Those women in the self-defense course in the video I posted went there to learn how to not be raped.

LOL - now you're mincing words. If we call it something different, you'll like it.

[laklak]

There is something to be said for looking prepared. If you were a mugger, who would you target? This guy:



Or this guy: