The case against guns

[MrJonno]

Collector1337, this is a reminder by staff that this post contains a personal attack on another member, in violation of the Play Nice rule that you signed off on when you registered. Please direct your attacks at ideas instead of individuals. Repeatedly attacking another member eventually results in temporary suspension(s). Thank you.

Oh come on I called Seth a future child killing murderer and a terrorist (and in no way was that a joke) and I didn't get a warning

[JimC]

Collector1337, this is a reminder by staff that this post contains a personal attack on another member, in violation of the Play Nice rule that you signed off on when you registered. Please direct your attacks at ideas instead of individuals. Repeatedly attacking another member eventually results in temporary suspension(s). Thank you.

Oh come on I called Seth a future child killing murderer and a terrorist (and in no way was that a joke) and I didn't get a warning

Is this a "death by mods" thing?

[Collector1337]

I was also called a terrorist.

[FBM]

Please don't shoot the messenger.* I'm just reflecting a staff decision about something that got reported. If you see or are the target of a rule violation, please report it. Staff can't be everywhere all the time. We need your help spotting rule violations.




(See what I did there? )

[MrJonno]

Please don't shoot the messenger.* I'm just reflecting a staff decision about something that got reported. If you see or are the target of a rule violation, please report it. Staff can't be everywhere all the time. We need your help spotting rule violations.




(See what I did there? )

Ok I'm reporting myself

[FBM]

Please don't shoot the messenger.* I'm just reflecting a staff decision about something that got reported. If you see or are the target of a rule violation, please report it. Staff can't be everywhere all the time. We need your help spotting rule violations.




(See what I did there? )

Ok I'm reporting myself

You'll just get into an argument with yourself and storm off the forum in a huff, claiming that you're in the clique, then everyone will blame you for chasing you off. Why can't you all just get along?

[MrJonno]

I was also called a terrorist.

But you aren't in the same league as Seth, I reckon he will be a very competent one you haven't proven yourself yet

[Seth]

In other words if the government decides you don't need to live, you don't have any problem with some government minion taking you out back and putting a bullet in the back of your head? You're comfortable with that?

Yes, Seth but that doesn't happen in civilised countries, and for those of us living in civilised countries, it isn't an issue.

Hmmm. Yes, you ARE comfortable with the government deciding whether or not you have a "right" to live. How...naive. How...idiotic.

You make the ridiculous assumption that a "civilized" country will always remain civilized.

You make the equally ridiculous assumption that the government has your personal best interests in mind. It doesn't. Government doesn't care about individuals, it administrates the whole population. This is where socialists make their great mistake. Large nations are simply too complex to allow government functionaries to give a damn about the individual, they have more important things to do.

The notion of rights being inherent, and it doesn't matter if you believe as some do that they are handed down by divinity or you infer them based on natural behavior, as I do, is important because it gives independent philosophical existence to those aspects of life that all human beings desire and find necessary to their survival and happiness. Nobody WANTS to be a slave. Every human being desires liberty, even if they cannot articulate it well because they have been so propagandized and brainwashed that they accept the hive-mentality of socialism. There remains that deep seated natural and innate desire to be free to do as they please, rather than as others please.

By granting government the power to grant rights, you give the government the power to revoke those rights at it's whim or caprice. That's fine as long as the government respects the innate needs of humans for life, liberty, property and happiness, but when the government turns on the citizenry and usurps the power that the people grant to the government to govern them, and the government takes the position that the individual only exists to serve the government, things can go bad very quickly, and usually do.

The rights are natural because they emanate from (IMHO) observable natural behavior. They are an aspect of each individual human being, and it is from those inherent aspects of one's humanity that one had the moral authority to grant power to a government.

It is not the rights that are philosophical because they are based in behavior, it is the balancing and adjudication and respect of the competing rights of another that is a philosophical construct between individuals and groups.

I have the right to life because I claim the right to life and will exercise and defend that right against ANYONE who attempts to infringe upon it, be it an individual, a group, or a government. How I balance that and other rights in order to live in a society with others is the philosophical part.

But the right to life is not granted to me by anyone, for if I'm living alone on an island, I have the right to defend my life in the absence of any other human being.

[Seth]

I was also called a terrorist.

But you aren't in the same league as Seth, I reckon he will be a very competent one you haven't proven yourself yet

Go fuck yourself, you servile asshat.

Never mind, I wouldn't want to hurl a personal insult or anything.

[Seth]

Are you comfortable with government deciding to kill you for reasons of its own and without your consent?

It's a yes or no question. answer it.

No and nor am I comfortable with the fact I'm going to die, that I don't have unlimited money and I have a large spot on my lip which is really painful at the moment but that doesn't change the fact that is reality.

You aren't master of your own life, you aren't captain of your ship and once you accept that you can get on with with living

This is the fallacy that you keep concocting. I've never claimed to be completely autonomous and absolutely free, so your argument is just a strawman.

The key to living in any society is the balancing of competing rights. But some rights are more important than others. There's a hierarchy involved, and my rights to life, liberty and property exceeds your right to feel safe, so my right to be armed for self defense is much, much more important than your vacuous and juvenile paranoid fear of guns.

[Blind groper]

Seth

Your government already has the power to take your life. My government does not.

The American government retains the death penalty, and numerous innocent people have aleady been executed due to judicial error. It could easily happen to you.

However, I live in a more civilised nation, where the "right" to life is taken far more seriously, and the government does not have the legal power to kill me.

Oh, and next to no one owns hand guns either.

[Collector1337]

My government does not.

The American government retains the death penalty, and numerous innocent people have aleady been executed due to judicial error. It could easily happen to you.

However, I live in a more civilised nation, where the "right" to life is taken far more seriously, and the government does not have the legal power to kill me.

Thinks government's capacity to kill you in limited to the death penalty. Foolishness to a hilarious level.

Oh, and next to no one owns hand guns either.

How very unfortunate for them. I'd never live there.

[Blind groper]

How very unfortunate for them. I'd never live there.

You have my deep and sincere thanks.

Here in NZ we do not want people who are married to tools for committing murder.

[Seth]

Seth

Your government already has the power to take your life.

My government does not.

All governments have the power to take life, the question is whether or not they have the AUTHORITY to do so. Your government will take your life if it wants to do so, and there's absolutely nothing whatever you can do about it. I, on the other hand, have the means to resist the power of government if it attempts to violate my rights through its exercise of power. That's the entire point of the 2nd Amendment.

The American government retains the death penalty, and numerous innocent people have aleady been executed due to judicial error. It could easily happen to you.

It could happen even easier to you.

However, I live in a more civilised nation, where the "right" to life is taken far more seriously, and the government does not have the legal power to kill me.

Oh, and next to no one owns hand guns either.

It's the word "legal" that makes your statement crap. You think that your government WON'T violate its own laws and kill you. But you fail to understand that government is at its core nothing more than naked force, and if your government decides to kill you, for whatever reason, it will do so because it can. And you are helpless to resist that force.

I'm not.

[Blind groper]

Seth

That is nonsense.

Certainly my government has the physical power to kill me or anyone else it chooses, but it would not remain the government for long if it tried. The people and the armed forces would unite and kick it out, and the people in government who so abused their elected power would be arrested, tried, and probably end up in prison for life.

So, your comments are irrelevant, because being physically able to do something is not important when we know the decisions made will be otherwise.

I am physically able to jump off a boat ten miles from shore, and swim ashore (I am a strong swimmer), but I can totally confirm that I will never willingly do that. Nor will my government ever use its power to kill people. It is only the terminally paranoid, and plain bloody stupid among us who would ever believe such bullshit!