Guns Because

[Seth]

Horseshit. Irrelevant red herrings. Doesn't matter what the "world wide" crime rate is doing, it ONLY matters that the crime rate in the US, including specifically the handgun murder rate, is DECLINING while the number of guns in our society is rapidly increasing.

Those two simple facts prove that more guns = less crime. It's simply indisputable.

Seth, that's extremely poor reasoning and an obvious logical fallacy.

Hm. Yes, I suppose the equals sign implies a direct cause/effect relationship, and that is at the moment only circumstantial, although there is a high degree of correlation between increases in the carrying of concealed weapons by law-abiding citizens and a drop in the rate of violent crime in those places where concealed carry is lawful, and there is also, generally speaking, the obverse found in places where concealed carry is unlawful, specifically Chicago.

But the fact remains that causal link or not what we positively do NOT see is an increase in violent crime or murders as a result of instigating lawful concealed carry...in ANY state where it's been done.

That debunks the notion that more guns = more crime rather completely.

So, since there is a negative correlation between gun ownership by law-abiding citizens and rises in criminal violence, there is no need to prohibit or restrict the right of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms, even concealed in public.

[Seth]

Isn't that precisely what I said? Oh wait, yes it is:...You need to take a remedial course in reading comprehension.

No, you do. Did I say that it wasn't what you said? No, I didn't. I was agreeing with you. I merely editorialized in my own way.

And remember, we don't say "more guns, less crime" AND "fewer guns, more crime."

WTF? You yourself have authored a number of posts warning us of the dramatic increase of assaults, rapes, robberies, home invasions et cetera, should there be fewer guns carried in private hands. Besides, how is it even possible to say "more guns, less crime" if the converse, "fewer guns, more crime." is not true?[/quote]

Yes, you're right, I did say that and my statement was inconsistent, therefore I withdraw it.

Tell us of something new and novel that you believe would provide a statistically significant drop in firearms crime.

If your reading comprehension were up to it, you may have discerned from my previous post that the prohibition of gun ownership in private ownership is not it.[/quote]

No need to be insulting, I wasn't saying you were, I was suggesting that if you have an idea other than banning guns that would achieve the result, that you put it forward so we can discuss it. While the question was directed at you, keep in mind it's a public forum and I was soliciting from everyone else too.

It's also something I have mentioned during a gun control discussion in a previous thread on this forum one or two years ago. On that occasion I searched for factual backup regarding claim and counter-claim, and fundamentally changed my stance on gun control on the basis of what I found: An absence of guns does not change the underlying rates of increase or decrease of various categories of criminal events. So, I abandoned my support for gun control while maintaining that those who assert that more guns means less crime as well as those who assert that fewer guns means less crime are talking from a fact-free zone. Until, of course they provide the appropriate statistics, and by that I don't mean cherry-picked and/or misapplied figures that they think are convincing, but statistics that are bullet-proof, if you excuse the pun, to their respective cases.

That's what I gathered. Sorry if I was unclear about that, I did not intend to imply that you favored gun bans, I was merely expanding on what you wrote.

[Seth]

The Australian situation is different to that in the USA in that there are next to zero hand guns in civilian possession in Australia. It is hand guns that are the big problem in the USA, where fully half of all murders are delivered via hand gun. All other firearms put together kill only one sixth of those killed by hand guns.

Remove the hand guns, as has been done in Oz and all other civilised nations, and the murder rate drops dramatically.

You may be right for all I know, but this thread is not titled "Hand Guns Because". Also, in order to backup your assertion you need to cite examples where an increase or decrease of hand gun ownership in any particular social location has had a commensurate increase or decrease in the rate of murder.

In Oz, at least, there has never been a historical period where hand guns were widespread in the population. Possibly in the goldrush days to an extent, but with nothing like the cultural position they have assumed in the US.

So, such data would be hard to find, I suspect......

Absolutely correct, and the reason is that Australia was founded by whites as a penal colony and the importation of ALL firearms has been severely restricted from the very beginning, and there is, as far as I understand it, no founding document declaring a right to keep and bear arms. Thus, Australia (along with virtually every other country outside of the US) is founded on the notion that one must have PERMISSION from the rulers to keep and bear arms. Of course in England, there used to be a thing called "The Rights of Englishmen" founded in, I believe, the Magna Carta, that theoretically secured the right to keep and bear arms to the English people. I also understand that it was egregiously abused right from the beginning by the various Kings and Queens, who bypassed the intent and used the law to debar, for example, Catholics from keeping arms.

That violation of trust by the English monarchy is one of the prime motivators for the American Revolution in fact.

Prior to 1924 however, handgun ownership in the UK was widespread and people carried concealed handguns routinely, and legally.

Nineteen twenty four was the turning point for the English, when they went from being citizens to being vassals and slaves of the state again, after working so hard to free themselves. Pitiful really.

[MrJonno]

Prior to 1924 however, handgun ownership in the UK was widespread and people carried concealed handguns routinely, and legally.

Prior to 1924 most British citizens were lucky if they had enough money to own a bathtub never mind a piece of complex machinery like a firearm (the US has more car's per person in 1924 than the UK did in 1970!). Firearms have never common in the UK mainly because by the time they were invented we had already had the industrial revolution and most people already lived in cities. The 'rights' or lack of them were to something no one could possible afford. In medieval times the peasants had access to farm implements again they would never have been able to afford an expensive sword.

The first police forces were unarmed because they simply didnt need to be, you seriously think if everyone had been carrying a handgun they wouldnt have been

You have the fictional Sherlock Homes with a firearm because he was part of the upper classes and the ability to afford one would have reflected this

[Gallstones]

No primer, no powder

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWeJsaCiGQ0

[Gallstones]

LOL!

[Gallstones]

The Thompson Center Omega .50 cal muzzle loader

The Thompson Center Omega has a sealed breech plug is specifically designed to avoid crushing Pyrodex pellets, which can cause a misfire. The Omega is also fast and easy to clean. It can handle 150 grains of blackpowder or Pyrodex equivalent, and the 28" barrel has a 1 in 28" twist. Rifles are 42" long, weigh 7 lbs and come with sling swivel studs, adjustable fiber optic sights and the barrels are drilled and tapped for easy scope mounting.

Costs ~$550 new with thumbhole stock

[Gallstones]

Marlin 308MXLR Lever action.

With an awesome 24” barrel of bullet-stabilizing, powder-burning steel, this super-tuned rifle platform stretches the maximum lethal distance from our breakthrough 338 Marlin Express chambering. For weather resistance, all major components are crafted of stainless steel, and the stock and fore-end are a distinctive two-tone laminate. Its extremely rugged stock has a full pistol grip and pre-installed sling swivel studs. Other features include side ejection, a solid-top receiver that’s tapped for scope mounts and fully adjustable sights.

~$775 to $1K new.

[JimC]

Semi-auto, I presume, rather than bolt action?

I had a .303/250 bolt action Mauser, once, many, many moons ago...

[Hermit]

Semi-auto, I presume, rather than bolt action?

Lever action is not semi automatic.

[JimC]

Semi-auto, I presume, rather than bolt action?

Lever action is not semi automatic.

When I posted that at school, the picture part was not displaying, or I would have spotted that...

[Hermit]

Semi-auto, I presume, rather than bolt action?

Lever action is not semi automatic.

When I posted that at school, the picture part was not displaying, or I would have spotted that...

"Lever action" is a bit of a giveaway.

[JimC]

Semi-auto, I presume, rather than bolt action?

Lever action is not semi automatic.

When I posted that at school, the picture part was not displaying, or I would have spotted that...

"Lever action" is a bit of a giveaway.

Anyway, I have an urge to shoot something right now!

BG would be so ashamed of me...

[Gallstones]

Wheatherby PA-459 Threat Response 20 guage shotgun.

[Gallstones]

Sam Yang Dragon Claw Air Rifle

The Dragon Claw is a compressed air rifle that fires a 1/2-inch diameter 210 grain slug at about 650 feet per second. For those doing the math, that’s roughly the same muzzle energy as a 9mm round, but with a ton more mass and surface area.

The gun is a single shot affair, meaning that each round needs to be loaded into the chamber before the gun can once again be cocked and fired. The charging handle on the right side of the gun clicks into place at a rearward position and is released by the trigger to fire the gun, so you also have to yank that thing back every time you fire. It’s quite the to-do compared to chemical propellants, but it gets the job done.

There’s also a cross-bar safety on the trigger guard which works very well

The propellant for this gun is compressed air, and is stored in an on-board air tank located underneath the barrel. The tank comes in the box fully loaded, and you can re-fill it conveniently from a standard SCUBA tank using a small adapter. Or you could just take it to the local dive shop and tell them to “fill ‘er up”.

The blued steel on this gun is a very nice satin-like finish on both the barrel and the air tank, and it looks and feels almost like a collector grade firearm rather than a cheap air rifle. It’s something that not only is functional, but looks damn good at the same time. Even the wood furniture on this gun is amazing, with a beautiful grain and well formed cheek piece. It’s a stunning work of art, especially for an air rifle and especially at this price point.

The gun ships with a set of iron sights installed, but there’s also space for an accessory rail on top of the receiver. So if you think a scope or a red dot is necessary you can add it yourself.

Specifications:

Chamber: .50 inches diameter
Barrel: 21.6 inches
Weight: 7.65 pounds
Capacity: Single shot
MSRP: $729.99