Stephen Hawking boycotts major Israel conference

[pErvinalia]

...
Basically, pretty much everyone I know who is a social justice fighter/advocate is anti-Israel because of Israeli policy. It's simply got nothing to do with Jews.

Argument from personal experience/personal preferences. Just because the circles you move in don't bring you into contact with anti-Semites does not mean that they don't exist somewhere in your society. I don't want to be friends either with racists, homophobes, or religious whackos. But I know such people exist in my locality, and in my society generally.

Once again, no one said they don't exist. That's not the argument here. Coit reckons "much" of the A-I crowd is A-J. I call bullshit. My personal circle of friends forms part of my reasoning for calling that, as does my interaction in rationalist debates about Israel on forums such as here, rdf and ratskep. Where's Coit's evidence for his claim that "much" of blah blah blah ldkjsdlkjsdlfkj?

The people I know are either intellectuals, and/or they are people from my region in Australia which has a Jewish population of about 3 people. There's simply no way to even generate a hate of Jewish people personally here, because we have no interaction with them at all.

Again, extrapolating from personal experience is not a good idea.

And again, that's not the point of what's being argued about here.

[klr]

...
Basically, pretty much everyone I know who is a social justice fighter/advocate is anti-Israel because of Israeli policy. It's simply got nothing to do with Jews.

Argument from personal experience/personal preferences. Just because the circles you move in don't bring you into contact with anti-Semites does not mean that they don't exist somewhere in your society. I don't want to be friends either with racists, homophobes, or religious whackos. But I know such people exist in my locality, and in my society generally.

Once again, no one said they don't exist. That's not the argument here. Coit reckons "much" of the A-I crowd is A-J. I call bullshit. My personal circle of friends forms part of my reasoning for calling that, as does my interaction in rationalist debates about Israel on forums such as here, rdf and ratskep. Where's Coit's evidence for his claim that "much" of blah blah blah ldkjsdlkjsdlfkj?

Your personal experience - or mine - matters not a whit. Same for CES, or anyone else. You can't make generalisations of this scale based on your own experience. If you perceive a problem with CES, then why can't you see the same with yourself?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22413301

Hungary's far-right Jobbik party has staged a rally in central Budapest in protest at the capital's hosting of the World Jewish Congress (WJC) on Sunday.

Several hundred supporters took part, despite attempts by the government to prevent it going ahead.

Jobbik said the rally was a protest against what it said was a Jewish attempt to buy up Hungary.

The party, which says it aims to protect Hungarian values and interests, is the third largest in parliament.

It regularly issues anti-Semitic statements.

The event in Budapest on Saturday was billed as a tribute to what organisers called the victims of Bolshevism and Zionism.

"The Israeli conquerors, these investors, should look for another country in the world for themselves because Hungary is not for sale," party chairman Gabor Vona told the rally, according to Reuters news agency.

Marton Gyongyosi said Hungary had "become subjugated to Zionism, it has become a target of colonisation while we, the indigenous people, can play only the role of extras".

Last year, Mr Gyongyosi had sparked outrage by saying all government officials of Jewish origin should be officially listed, as they might be a "national security risk".

...

I didn't go looking for news like this - I'm not a watcher for any signs of anti-Semitism. But it's been widely reported, and hard to miss.

The people I know are either intellectuals, and/or they are people from my region in Australia which has a Jewish population of about 3 people. There's simply no way to even generate a hate of Jewish people personally here, because we have no interaction with them at all.

Again, extrapolating from personal experience is not a good idea.

And again, that's irrelevant to what's being argued about here.

It's very relevant, because you continue to adhere to general view which you freely admit is based on your own personal experiences & preferences. Can't you see the problem with that?

[pErvinalia]

...
Basically, pretty much everyone I know who is a social justice fighter/advocate is anti-Israel because of Israeli policy. It's simply got nothing to do with Jews.

Argument from personal experience/personal preferences. Just because the circles you move in don't bring you into contact with anti-Semites does not mean that they don't exist somewhere in your society. I don't want to be friends either with racists, homophobes, or religious whackos. But I know such people exist in my locality, and in my society generally.

Once again, no one said they don't exist. That's not the argument here. Coit reckons "much" of the A-I crowd is A-J. I call bullshit. My personal circle of friends forms part of my reasoning for calling that, as does my interaction in rationalist debates about Israel on forums such as here, rdf and ratskep. Where's Coit's evidence for his claim that "much" of blah blah blah ldkjsdlkjsdlfkj?

Your personal experience - or mine - matters not a whit. Same for CES, or anyone else. You can't make generalisations of this scale based on your own experience. If you perceive a problem with CES, then why can't you see the same with yourself?

The difference is, that I've at least tried to supply reasoning to my position. All Coit has supplied is a lot of unsubstantiated "quotes" and apparently Mister Mack who said some disgusting things. I really don't understand why you are focusing your attention on me. Coit is the one who made a strong claim without any evidence or reasoning to back it up. The fact that you are focussing on me, as an outspoken critic of the Israeli state, suggest you are encumbered with some baggage or bias. That's fine, but lets just be clear about it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22413301

Hungary's far-right Jobbik party has staged a rally in central Budapest in protest at the capital's hosting of the World Jewish Congress (WJC) on Sunday.

Several hundred supporters took part, despite attempts by the government to prevent it going ahead.

Jobbik said the rally was a protest against what it said was a Jewish attempt to buy up Hungary.

The party, which says it aims to protect Hungarian values and interests, is the third largest in parliament.

It regularly issues anti-Semitic statements.

The event in Budapest on Saturday was billed as a tribute to what organisers called the victims of Bolshevism and Zionism.

"The Israeli conquerors, these investors, should look for another country in the world for themselves because Hungary is not for sale," party chairman Gabor Vona told the rally, according to Reuters news agency.

Marton Gyongyosi said Hungary had "become subjugated to Zionism, it has become a target of colonisation while we, the indigenous people, can play only the role of extras".

Last year, Mr Gyongyosi had sparked outrage by saying all government officials of Jewish origin should be officially listed, as they might be a "national security risk".

...

I didn't go looking for news like this - I'm not a watcher for any signs of anti-Semitism. But it's been widely reported, and hard to miss.

I'm sorry, but you once again appear to be really struggling with what the actual point that is being debated here is. The point being debated concerns self-identified anti-Israel persons, not obvious anti-Semites. How many fucking times do I have to spell this out? The fact that the "far right" Jobbhead party in Antisemiticland hates Jews is fucking irrelevant. NO ONE denies that there are anti-semites in the world.

Fucking kill me. I'm going to bed.

The people I know are either intellectuals, and/or they are people from my region in Australia which has a Jewish population of about 3 people. There's simply no way to even generate a hate of Jewish people personally here, because we have no interaction with them at all.

Again, extrapolating from personal experience is not a good idea.

And again, that's irrelevant to what's being argued about here.

It's very relevant, because you continue to adhere to general view which you freely admit is based on your own personal experiences & preferences. Can't you see the problem with that?

[/quote]

The problem I see is that you've focussed on me, and not the person making the original unsupported strong claim.

I'm going to bed now. I look forward to you taking up the challenge of Coit's unsupported strong claim. I'll read all about it in the morning.

[Coito ergo sum]

ReV - how about we start with:

(a) what are the things you are critical of Israel about?

and,

(b) what is your evidentiary basis to support those criticisms?

If there are too many to cover here, just go with your top one or two. Whatever you think the biggies are, the real whoppers.

[charlou]

That was to rEv, but I have something

(a) centuries old biblical mambo jambo adversely affecting the lives of people today

(b) the bible, and what people have been and are doing

Those are my top ones.

[Coito ergo sum]

That was to rEv, but I have something

(a) centuries old biblical mambo jambo adversely affecting the lives of people today

(b) the bible, and what people have been and are doing

Those are my top ones.

Rather generalized, but, I would think that criticism would certainly be as much or more applicable to the surrounding Arab Muslim countries, in relation to the Koran. I think we all, here, object to the religiosity of governments.

I don't think that really identifies specifically, however, something that Israel is doing that makes them so horrible, to the point of being said to have turned into Nazis themselves.

[Svartalf]

Jeez, who are the 1% in Lebanon with a favorable rating of Israel?

Levantine Jews?

[Svartalf]

No one said it has disappeared from the West.

Correct, because that's not the point that you were making, or that I was addressing. You were implying that anti-Semitism is very rare in the West:

Very rare? My foot... it's just unPC (and illegal) to express it in public, but that doesn't prevent rich and poor alike from hating them in private...

[Pappa]

Who are the 34% in the UK who see Israel in favourable light?

They're probably the same 34% that elect conservative governments.

Too true. Plus the UKIP vote. Almost enough to form a minority between them.

[klr]

No one said it has disappeared from the West.

Correct, because that's not the point that you were making, or that I was addressing. You were implying that anti-Semitism is very rare in the West:

Very rare? My foot... it's just unPC (and illegal) to express it in public, but that doesn't prevent rich and poor alike from hating them in private...

Or via an anonymous internet connection. You only have to look at on-line discussions on any controversial topic to see that there are still plenty of people about with deeply held and often extreme opinions. I'm acutely aware of this from frequenting an Irish political forum, although I don't ever post there. It's just too much of a bear-pit - or even a cess-pit. Ratz is positively genteel in comparison.

[Pappa]

ReV - how about we start with:

(a) what are the things you are critical of Israel about?

and,

(b) what is your evidentiary basis to support those criticisms?

If there are too many to cover here, just go with your top one or two. Whatever you think the biggies are, the real whoppers.

There are a whole bunch of major issues, but how about these two for starters.

1) Israel re-drawing the borders to ensure the fresh water supplies go to Israelis and not Palestinians.

2) The arbitrary restrictions on what can be imported into Gaza. At various times it has included wood, cement, gravel, chocolate, musical instruments, crayons, batteries, wheelchairs, books, cups.... I could go on, the list is really rather long.

Regarding point 2. We had a discussion about this around 3 years ago and at the time you were surprised and didn't initially believe such restrictions had existed. I provided you with detailed documentary evidence about some of the more absurd restrictions, though I don't really recall your response.

[pErvinalia]

ReV - how about we start with:

(a) what are the things you are critical of Israel about?

and,

(b) what is your evidentiary basis to support those criticisms?

If there are too many to cover here, just go with your top one or two. Whatever you think the biggies are, the real whoppers.

Honestly, I'm not interested in a debate on Israel/Palestine. It's like gun debates. I've wasted weeks on them in the past and achieved nothing. I'll make little points here and there, but the issue is too polemic to get any real value out of.

[pErvinalia]

No one said it has disappeared from the West.

Correct, because that's not the point that you were making, or that I was addressing. You were implying that anti-Semitism is very rare in the West:

Very rare? My foot... it's just unPC (and illegal) to express it in public, but that doesn't prevent rich and poor alike from hating them in private...

Just to be clear here, in case anyone actually thinks this is what I was implying, I wasn't implying any such thing.

[pErvinalia]

ReV - how about we start with:

(a) what are the things you are critical of Israel about?

and,

(b) what is your evidentiary basis to support those criticisms?

If there are too many to cover here, just go with your top one or two. Whatever you think the biggies are, the real whoppers.

There are a whole bunch of major issues, but how about these two for starters.

1) Israel re-drawing the borders to ensure the fresh water supplies go to Israelis and not Palestinians.

2) The arbitrary restrictions on what can be imported into Gaza. At various times it has included wood, cement, gravel, chocolate, musical instruments, crayons, batteries, wheelchairs, books, cups.... I could go on, the list is really rather long.

Regarding point 2. We had a discussion about this around 3 years ago and at the time you were surprised and didn't initially believe such restrictions had existed. I provided you with detailed documentary evidence about some of the more absurd restrictions, though I don't really recall your response.

This is reason why I don't debate with Coit much. For whatever reason, he continually claims he doesn't know the sky is blue. No matter how widely it is known that the sky is blue, he apparently doesn't know it. There's nothing wrong with not knowing certain things, but to speak so strongly and authoritatively on some subjects without knowing the most basic facts is discouraging to further debate.

[Jason]

He argues like a politician.


Also why I don't debate with him much either.