Stephen Hawking boycotts major Israel conference

[Coito ergo sum]

It's Israelis who are racist thieving shits. Not jews.

There are plenty of jews who think the same.

I think Hawking never intended to go. He just maximised the publicity effect of turning it down. Nice one !!

LOL -- the Israeli Arab Muslims, too? Are they racist thieving shits, too?

[pErvinalia]

LOL - Germany. Nice.

They're just Nazis, right?

[Coito ergo sum]

LOL - Germany. Nice.

They're just Nazis, right?

I didn't call them that. However, didn't you call Israelis that? Or, was that someone else? I forget now.

I'm sure that antisemitism in Germany did not disappear after World War 2 and it was only a couple generations ago. There has always been a seething underbelly of antisemitism in Europe, for hundreds of years. Purges, holocaust, etc. This stuff doesn't go away in a few decades. Shit look at Austria and Hungary -- there are parties getting significant seats in Parliament that are considered fascist and Nazi and racist. Germany has to make Mein Kampf illegal. Why do you think that is?

Much of the anti-Israel bunch are Jew-haters. It's a way to openly hate Jews while giving oneself cover. It's why they say Israel doesn't have a right to exist, but Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, and Syria do. They don't care about the Muslim countries created in the same manner Israel was created.

[pErvinalia]

Where's your evidence that "much of the anti-Israel bunch are Jew-haters"? If you are talking about muslims who hate Israel, then there could be an element of truth in that. But if you are talking about westerners, then I think you are pulling that from your arse. I'm an anti-Israel person, and I'm most certainly not a Jew-hater. And I know many anti-Israel people, and I doubt any of them are Jew-haters either.

The "anti-Semitism" card is basically the cheapest card in the deck. It's fucking pathetic really, if there is no evidence to back it up. Criticising the actions of the state of Israel is not anti-Semitism.

[Coito ergo sum]

Where's your evidence that "much of the anti-Israel bunch are Jew-haters"? If you are talking about muslims who hate Israel, then there could be an element of truth in that.

Many Muslims expressly hate Jews. My evidence is Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeta, Fateh, and boatload of published items by Muslim groups expressing hatred of Jews. And, the fact that the reason they hate Israel is because it is Jewish.

My evidence for much of the anti-Israel bunch being Jew haters are the statements made by the anti-Israel bunch. And, the fact that they claim Israel has no right to exist, but they don't also claim that Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, etc. have no right to exist, even though all of them were created in exactly the same way. They don't rail against Muslim countries being Muslim countries, but they rail against a Jewish Israel. The disparate treatment is obvious and palpable.

But if you are talking about westerners, then I think you are pulling that from your arse. I'm an anti-Israel person, and I'm most certainly not a Jew-hater. And I know many anti-Israel people, and I doubt any of them are Jew-haters either.

The "anti-Semitism" card is basically the cheapest card in the deck. It's fucking pathetic really, if there is no evidence to back it up. Criticising the actions of the state of Israel is not anti-Semitism.

What I see as antisemitism is the special attention paid to the actions of the state of Israel, and the discounting or ignoring of the actions of Muslim countries. Those that believe they are not anti-Jew but just anti-Israel seem to accept the nonsense allegations that Israel is exterminating Palestinians and other Arabs. They claim genocides where none exist. They say Israel has no right to exist.

And, criticizing the actions of Israel is just fine, but generally folks who criticize the actions of Israel make unfounded allegations and then refuse to back them up with evidence. Like about exterminations and "stealing" homes and such.

[pErvinalia]

Where's your evidence that "much of the anti-Israel bunch are Jew-haters"? If you are talking about muslims who hate Israel, then there could be an element of truth in that.

Many Muslims expressly hate Jews. My evidence is Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeta, Fateh, and boatload of published items by Muslim groups expressing hatred of Jews. And, the fact that the reason they hate Israel is because it is Jewish.

My evidence for much of the anti-Israel bunch being Jew haters are the statements made by the anti-Israel bunch. And, the fact that they claim Israel has no right to exist, but they don't also claim that Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, etc. have no right to exist, even though all of them were created in exactly the same way. They don't rail against Muslim countries being Muslim countries, but they rail against a Jewish Israel. The disparate treatment is obvious and palpable.

But if you are talking about westerners, then I think you are pulling that from your arse. I'm an anti-Israel person, and I'm most certainly not a Jew-hater. And I know many anti-Israel people, and I doubt any of them are Jew-haters either.

The "anti-Semitism" card is basically the cheapest card in the deck. It's fucking pathetic really, if there is no evidence to back it up. Criticising the actions of the state of Israel is not anti-Semitism.

What I see as antisemitism is the special attention paid to the actions of the state of Israel, and the discounting or ignoring of the actions of Muslim countries. Those that believe they are not anti-Jew but just anti-Israel seem to accept the nonsense allegations that Israel is exterminating Palestinians and other Arabs. They claim genocides where none exist. They say Israel has no right to exist.

"They" all do this, do they?

And, criticizing the actions of Israel is just fine, but generally folks who criticize the actions of Israel make unfounded allegations and then refuse to back them up with evidence.

Maybe you spend too much time arguing with idiots. You should try arguing with some rationalists.

[klr]

Just because the axis of anti-Semitism has swung from the "Christian" West to the Muslim world doesn't mean that anti-Semitism has disappeared from the West. It's still very much alive in the likes of Austria and Hungary, as CES has pointed out.

And yes, I am making a clear distinction between merely being opposed to Israeli policies on moral/ethical grounds, and blatant anti-Jewish sentiment.

[pErvinalia]

No one said it has disappeared from the West.

[Coito ergo sum]

"They" all do this, do they?

"All"? This canard is so tiresome....

No -- not "all" of anybody does anything. If we can only talk about what "all" people of a given group do or say or think, then the conversation is over.

Many - most, in my view. A boatload.

And, criticizing the actions of Israel is just fine, but generally folks who criticize the actions of Israel make unfounded allegations and then refuse to back them up with evidence.

Maybe you spend too much time arguing with idiots. You should try arguing with some rationalists.

I've argued with you about Israel and you haven't backed up your assertions about Israel with evidence. I've been through threads with you on RatSkep and I think here too (not 100% positive).

[klr]

No one said it has disappeared from the West.

Correct, because that's not the point that you were making, or that I was addressing. You were implying that anti-Semitism is very rare in the West:

Where's your evidence that "much of the anti-Israel bunch are Jew-haters"? If you are talking about muslims who hate Israel, then there could be an element of truth in that. But if you are talking about westerners, then I think you are pulling that from your arse. I'm an anti-Israel person, and I'm most certainly not a Jew-hater. And I know many anti-Israel people, and I doubt any of them are Jew-haters either.

The "anti-Semitism" card is basically the cheapest card in the deck. It's fucking pathetic really, if there is no evidence to back it up. Criticising the actions of the state of Israel is not anti-Semitism.

As we've both pointed out, that is not the case at all.

[pErvinalia]

his claim was "much" of the anti-Israel blah blah blah.

[pErvinalia]

"They" all do this, do they?

"All"? This canard is so tiresome....

It's not a fucking canard. You specifically talked about a group of people. You can't talk about a group of people as a group and not be talking about everyone of them. Here's what you said:
"Those that believe they are not anti-Jew but just anti-Israel seem to accept the nonsense allegations that Israel is exterminating Palestinians and other Arabs. They claim genocides where none exist. They say Israel has no right to exist."

Many - most, in my view. A boatload.

So once again, where's your fucking evidence?

And, criticizing the actions of Israel is just fine, but generally folks who criticize the actions of Israel make unfounded allegations and then refuse to back them up with evidence.

Maybe you spend too much time arguing with idiots. You should try arguing with some rationalists.

I've argued with you about Israel and you haven't backed up your assertions about Israel with evidence. I've been through threads with you on RatSkep and I think here too (not 100% positive).

Bullshit. In more recent times I have found debating properly with you to be a total waste of fucking time. Hence why I don't really bother any more.

[Coito ergo sum]

his claim was "much" of the anti-Israel blah blah blah.

It is "much" of the anti-Israel crowd. Like Mistermack -- his posts seethe with anti-Jewish bias.

And, much of the anti-Israel movement is against Israel precisely because it is a Jewish state.

A big part of the Muslim complaint is that Israel itself, event the 1947 borders, was stolen from Muslims -- it should rightfully be a Muslim country. Their bitch is not that it is a religious country -- their bitch is that it is the wrong religion.

And much of the western anti-Israel crowd focuses on Israel as improperly a Jewish state but they do not say hardly a word about the several Muslim countries that were formed in exactly the same way that are Muslim countries. Implicit is that they seem to think that the Levant is properly Muslim.

Sure, if Israel does something wrong, criticize it. But, it is not the criticism of Israeli actions that is where I find antisemitism -- it is when we get the core issues -- the "Israel has no right to exist" bit.

And, Israel is so far and away less deserving of criticism than Muslim countries that surround it. I hear more criticism of Israel than I do of Syria. It's ridiculous.

[pErvinalia]

his claim was "much" of the anti-Israel blah blah blah.

It is "much" of the anti-Israel crowd. Like Mistermack -- his posts seethe with anti-Jewish bias.

Ok that's one (unconfirmed, as I haven't read any of his posts recently). Basically, pretty much everyone I know who is a social justice fighter/advocate is anti-Israel because of Israeli policy. It's simply got nothing to do with Jews. The people I know are either intellectuals, and/or they are people from my region in Australia which has a Jewish population of about 3 people. There's simply no way to even generate a hate of Jewish people personally here, because we have no interaction with them at all. In fact, the only anti-semites I have ever known in my region are those "friends" who went to Catholic schools. But that's not particularly surprising, as those schools mostly turned out racist, sexist, homophobic bigots. Adding in a bit of religious hatred is a pretty small step for them.

And, much of the anti-Israel movement is against Israel precisely because it is a Jewish state.

Not in my experience. You are possibly getting confused with those people who are against ethnic states across the board. Of the minority of anti-Israel people I know who include the apartheid-ness of Israel amongst their reasons to oppose them, many of them oppose ethnic states across the world. Tibet is one prime example, and one you would never expect someone on the left to oppose.

A big part of the Muslim complaint is that Israel itself, event the 1947 borders, was stolen from Muslims -- it should rightfully be a Muslim country. Their bitch is not that it is a religious country -- their bitch is that it is the wrong religion.

I've no doubt that there's a strong religious element there. But do you also think it could be genuinely felt by many that the land was indeed "stolen", in the sense that the locals living there who were displaced didn't get a say in it? Why is it not conceivable in your brain that this could be a valid complaint?

And much of the western anti-Israel crowd focuses on Israel as improperly a Jewish state but they do not say hardly a word about the several Muslim countries that were formed in exactly the same way that are Muslim countries. Implicit is that they seem to think that the Levant is properly Muslim.

Or you suffer from confirmation bias.

Another explanation, the one that applies to me (and a number of others that I know) is that at present, the Israeli state is terroristic, and oppressive towards surrounding nations. And additionally, they (Israel) are the dominant power in the region, therefore their actions have greater effect than other nations actions. This is the same reason that many attack the policies of the US. Despite your wish that it was just simply anti-Americanism.

Sure, if Israel does something wrong, criticize it. But, it is not the criticism of Israeli actions that is where I find antisemitism -- it is when we get the core issues -- the "Israel has no right to exist" bit.

I've never heard one single intelligent and non-religious critic of Israel ever say "Israel has no right to exist". You are either hanging out on Islamists websites, or you are suffering from massive confirmation bias.

And, Israel is so far and away less deserving of criticism than Muslim countries that surround it. I hear more criticism of Israel than I do of Syria. It's ridiculous.

This is why a debate is not possible with you.

[klr]

...
Basically, pretty much everyone I know who is a social justice fighter/advocate is anti-Israel because of Israeli policy. It's simply got nothing to do with Jews.

Argument from personal experience/personal preferences. Just because the circles you move in don't bring you into contact with anti-Semites does not mean that they don't exist somewhere in your society. I don't want to be friends either with racists, homophobes, or religious whackos. But I know such people exist in my locality, and in my society generally.

The people I know are either intellectuals, and/or they are people from my region in Australia which has a Jewish population of about 3 people. There's simply no way to even generate a hate of Jewish people personally here, because we have no interaction with them at all.

Again, extrapolating from personal experience is not a good idea.

In fact, the only anti-semites I have ever known in my region are those "friends" who went to Catholic schools. But that's not particularly surprising, as those schools mostly turned out racist, sexist, homophobic bigots. Adding in a bit of religious hatred is a pretty small step for them.

The only openly ant-Semitic speech I can recall ever hearing came from my primary school teacher, way back in the late 1970's, still in "deep Catholic" time. It passed over my head at the time, and I only cottoned on to what he was saying years afterwards.