Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

[Collector1337]

To Collector

Re facts on guns in the USA.


Get these figures and accept them, because they are official statistics, agreed upon by groups such as the FBI, and the Centers for Disease Control. These vary a bit year to year, so I have rounded the numbers to the nearest 1,000.

There are 100,000 shootings of people each year in the USA. Of that group, 22,000 result in deaths. 12,000 gun deaths are suicides and 10,000 are murders. Other gun deaths, like accidental shootings are negligible by comparison. Of the 10,000 gun murders, 8,000 are committed with hand guns.

The USA has a murder rate of 4.3 killings per 100,000 people per year (total of 16,000 murders with all weapons), and half of those murders are done with hand guns. By comparison, other western democracies such as Australia, Britain, Canada, France, Germany etc have a quarter of the murder rate per capita. My country has a murder rate that is one fifth of that of the USA. The primary difference between the disgustingly high murder rate in the USA, versus the lower rates in other western democracies, is guns.

Violent crime rates are more or less similar between the USA and other western democracies (vary about 100%). However, few of those violent crimes in other western democracies result in killings. In the USA, a much higher percentage of violent crimes result in deaths, for the simple reason that criminals have access to hand guns.

**The most common situation in the USA that leads to murder is, interestingly, arguments. Mainly between young men. Typically, two guys get into a verbal fight and one ends up totally losing his temper, pulling out a hand gun, and shooting the other guy. In other western nations, that situation may end up with a fist fight, and people getting cuts and bruises, or even broken bones, but rarely being killed. Killings are much more common in the USA for the simple reason that more people carry loaded hand guns. The total number of murders due to this kind of argument is a little more than half of all the hand gun murders.

It is also interesting to note that, of all claims that someone has used a gun in successful self defense, the most common such situation is also an argument, in which one person pulls a hand gun and threatens the other with it. Because people think with their gonads, and are prone to rationalise their actions to make themselves look good, those guys claim this to be a successful self defense. In fact, it is not, and their actions have been determined by American judges to be illegal.

** This information comes from the latest edition of the Skeptic magazine (American version), which has a special on gun homicides in America.

Remind me why I care?

I've been a young man and gotten into many arguments with other young men. We had guns. No one ever shot each other or even had the thought to.

[Blind groper]

I've been a young man and gotten into many arguments with other young men. We had guns. No one ever shot each other or even had the thought to.

The point is that 3, 500 people in the USA each year get shot dead in this kind of argument. I am well aware that gun nutters do not worry about other people killed this way. That is one of the qualities that make a person into a gun nutter. People who care about other people do not react that way. We care about human welfare.

The article in Skeptic pointed out a couple of other interesting things that Seth will deny.

Seth claims that mass killings will be reduced if armed guards are placed in schools etc., and if more people concealed carry, it will reduce mass murders.

Well, the Columbine massacre happened in spite of an armed guard. The perpetrators of that mass killing simply planned to take care of the armed guard. It turns out from research, that most mass killings are well planned. Sometimes the killers plan ahead for months. If an armed guard exists, as at Columbine, that person simply becomes the first to receive a bullet.

There have been a couple of cases where a civilian who carries a concealed hand gun was present at a mass killing. In only one case did that person tackle the killers, and he did it literally. The gun stayed in its holster. In that case, the killer had to reload, and while doing so, was physically tackled by several people, including the guy with the hand gun.

The record tells us that armed guards and concealed carry do nothing to reduce mass killings.

[Collector1337]

I've been a young man and gotten into many arguments with other young men. We had guns. No one ever shot each other or even had the thought to.

The point is that 3, 500 people in the USA each year get shot dead in this kind of argument. I am well aware that gun nutters do not worry about other people killed this way. That is one of the qualities that make a person into a gun nutter. People who care about other people do not react that way. We care about human welfare.

Idiots who do stupid shit, and apparently have too much testosterone, deserve what they get. Either party has a choice to walk away, instead they both continute.

I feel no sympathy for those who do stupid shit. They should suffer the consequences.

Seth claims that mass killings will be reduced if armed guards are placed in schools etc., and if more people concealed carry, it will reduce mass murders.

Well, the Columbine massacre happened in spite of an armed guard. The perpetrators of that mass killing simply planned to take care of the armed guard. It turns out from research, that most mass killings are well planned. Sometimes the killers plan ahead for months. If an armed guard exists, as at Columbine, that person simply becomes the first to receive a bullet.

It also happened "in spite" of an assault weapons ban and magazine restrictions. So obviously, they do nothing.

That's why if faculty and stuff, who have their carry permits, who WANTED to carry in school, not forced, then these mass killers would have no idea if that teacher is armed, or if that janitor is armed, they wouldn't know, so they couldn't just take out the one armed guard and then have free reign of the place.

There have been a couple of cases where a civilian who carries a concealed hand gun was present at a mass killing. In only one case did that person tackle the killers, and he did it literally. The gun stayed in its holster. In that case, the killer had to reload, and while doing so, was physically tackled by several people, including the guy with the hand gun.

Shitty tactics. They are very lucky it worked. He should have just found cover and then fired at the shooter and it would have been a lot faster and he could have saved more people.

The record tells us that armed guards and concealed carry do nothing to reduce mass killings.

Lie. You just don't see it because they don't make the news.

[Seth]

Horseshit statistical mendacity elided.

**The most common situation in the USA that leads to murder is, interestingly, arguments. Mainly between young men. Typically, two guys get into a verbal fight and one ends up totally losing his temper, pulling out a hand gun, and shooting the other guy. In other western nations, that situation may end up with a fist fight, and people getting cuts and bruises, or even broken bones, but rarely being killed. Killings are much more common in the USA for the simple reason that more people carry loaded hand guns. The total number of murders due to this kind of argument is a little more than half of all the hand gun murders.

** This information comes from the latest edition of the Skeptic magazine (American version), which has a special on gun homicides in America.

It's not "information" it's unsubstantiated and mendacious personal opinion.

It is also interesting to note that, of all claims that someone has used a gun in successful self defense, the most common such situation is also an argument, in which one person pulls a hand gun and threatens the other with it.

Where's your factual evidence of this claim? Wait, you don't have any factual evidence, you're just making an ex-recto claim that's simply ludicrous.

Because people think with their gonads, and are prone to rationalise their actions to make themselves look good, those guys claim this to be a successful self defense. In fact, it is not, and their actions have been determined by American judges to be illegal.

More outright lies. I've presented, in this thread, numerous examples of non-argument defensive gun uses that were successful that were ruled to be entirely legal, to the point where the police don't even write the victim a ticket, much less prosecute him/her.

There are millions of similar legal defensive gun uses having nothing to do with arguments in the US every year. You deny it, but I've produced the actual examples, not one of which you've ever addressed or acknowledged much less debunked.

You're an intellectually dishonest fraud whose idiotic opinions deserve no response...except for the fact that some credulous lurker might think you have a point if we allow your tripe to stand unrefuted.

[Seth]

And here's yet another example that you'll ignore or dismiss because it destroys your argument:

Crime
Sometimes Armed Home Intruders Just Have to Learn the Hard Way
May. 6, 2013 5:31pm Jason Howerton

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Georgia Homeowner Shoots, Injures Armed Intruder in Fulton County

The Kewanna home where an intruder was shot and critically hurt just after midnight on Monday. (WSBT photo/Denise Bohn)

An armed intruder was shot by a Georgia homeowner early Monday morning after he unlawfully forced his way into a home in Fulton County.

The Fulton County Sheriff’s Department said the incident occurred just after midnight on Monday. The gunman reportedly gained entry by breaking the door down. The noise sent the male homeowner, identified as 34-year-old Camron Vawter, scrambling to retrieve his firearm.

Vawter told police he then shot the gunman, disarmed him and then called the police, WSBT-TV reports.

In a surprising twist, police later identified the intruder as Michael Righter, 41, who is apparently going through a divorce with a woman who was present in Vawter’s home at the time the conflict occurred.

“Righter was airlifted to Memorial Hosptial, where he was last listed in critical condition,” the report adds.

The investigation into the shooting is ongoing but criminal charges are expected against Righter, according to police.

[Blind groper]

To Seth

The reason I ignore anecdoptes is because they are single examples out of 10, 000 murders per year and 80, 000 other, but non lethal shootings.

An anecdote is like a homeopath telling me that he applied his quack remedy to a person with a headache which then got better. I am sure, Seth, that even you can see the flaw in the homeopaths argument. In the same way, anecdotes mean exactly nothing in terms of overall trends. They are all too often simply the exceptions to the rule.

Anyway, let me go back to the data published in
the latest Skeptic mag.

Seth tried to tell us that the argument data represents gang shootings. Sorry, Seth, that is not true. The statistics had a separate category for gangland shootings. Let me outline the actual numbers. These are gun murders for the year 2009, which are no felony related. I am rounding each to the nearest round number.

1. Arguments not over money or property. 3, 500
2. Not specified (Probably meaning unsolved murders) 2, 000
3. Juvenile gang killings. 600
4. Arguments over money or property 200
5. Gangland killings. 200
6. Brawl due to the influence of alcohol 100
7. Brawl due to the influence of narcotics. 100
8. Romantic triangle. 100
9. Child killed by babysitter. Almost zero.
10. Institutional killings. Almost zero.
11. Sniper attack. Zero.

You can see, the major cause of murders is arguments, and there is no indication they are related to gangs or criminals. Just people. Outside of the USA, most of those murders would not have happened due to the fact that those arguing would not have had hand guns. Instead, the arguments would have ended in a non lethal brawl.

More guns means more murders. Fewer guns means lives saved.

[Seth]

To Seth

The reason I ignore anecdoptes is because they are single examples out of 10, 000 murders per year and 80, 000 other, but non lethal shootings.

No, you ignore the data points because they blow your silly theory that handguns are useless for self defense.

An anecdote is like a homeopath telling me that he applied his quack remedy to a person with a headache which then got better. I am sure, Seth, that even you can see the flaw in the homeopaths argument. In the same way, anecdotes mean exactly nothing in terms of overall trends. They are all too often simply the exceptions to the rule.

Again, they aren't anecdotes, they are reports of events that occurred. They are, in other words, facts...something I know you're unfamiliar with.

Anyway, let me go back to the data published in
the latest Skeptic mag.

Seth tried to tell us that the argument data represents gang shootings. Sorry, Seth, that is not true. The statistics had a separate category for gangland shootings.

No, they have a category for JUVENILE gang shootings, which is completely different from gang shootings. Juveniles are defined as persons under age 18 in the UCR reporting manual. More importantly, juvenile gang killings must be listed in their own category, and we don't know how many of those were the result of "argument other."

There is no category for adult gang killings.

Therefore you cannot say that the "data represents gang shootings" because there is no breakout of how many of the "argument other" offenses were involving ADULT gang members.

Nor can we say how many of the JUVENILE gang killings are the result of an "argument other" or otherwise, because juvenile gang killings are not subcategorized in that way.

You can see, the major cause of murders is arguments, and there is no indication they are related to gangs or criminals. Just people.

Wrong again, as described above. There is no indication how many of the "arguments other" were between adult gang members.

Outside of the USA, most of those murders would not have happened due to the fact that those arguing would not have had hand guns. Instead, the arguments would have ended in a non lethal brawl.

Brawls are not always non-lethal, trust me. But that's irrelevant because the fact that some people shoot other people, whether they are gang members or not, does not serve as a rational argument for preventing everyone else from exercising their right to keep and bear handguns for the purposes of self defense. It's already illegal to pull out a gun and shoot someone due to an argument alone. That's all the law we need in that regard.

More guns means more murders. Fewer guns means lives saved.

Nope. The facts show that more guns = less crime. But it's not a statistical argument to begin with. Keeping and bearing arms for self defense is a right that's not subject to statistical analysis, as I've said, and you've studiously ignored repeatedly.

[Blind groper]

Seth as always trying to talk down the facts. The data published in Skeptic mag was taken from official 2009 FBI crime statistics.

That data had two categories for gang killings. Total of 400 gang killings for 2009, out of a total of just under 14, 000 total murders.

Yet Seth continues to tell us most murders are from gangs. Duh!!

[Seth]

'Nother data point:

Crime
See What Happened When a Suspected Burglar Returned a Second Time to 98-Year-Old Grandma’s Home
May. 14, 2013 11:34am Liz Klimas


Michigan Grandson Defends Grandmothers Home With Rifle When Burglars Return for Second Time

A suspected burglar was shot by a grandson defending his grandmother’s home when the intruder tried to run over him with a car. The suspect was identified by police when he checked himself into a hospital for treatment for birdshot wounds. (Photo: Shutterstock.com)

The grandson of a 98-year-old Michigan woman feared something was amiss when he saw while at his own home that the monitor, which he used as a caregiver to stay in touch about her well-being, was disconnected.

MLive reported the 49-year-old grandson, who was not identified by name, headed over to her home Sunday and found she had been burglarized. The grandmother didn’t notice she was being burglarized when it initially happened because of her poor eyesight and hearing.

Thieves had entered forcibly through the backdoor of the Buena Vista Township home and taken the laptop and an ATV. The grandson contacted the police regarding the burglary.

But the story doesn’t end there. For safety reasons, the grandson stayed at his grandmother’s home overnight and even told the authorities earlier in the day that he had brought his gun for security, MLive reported. In the early morning hours, the grandson heard a scuffle outside the house and sounds of someone trying to force their way in.

MLive stated the the grandson saw a car in the driveway with a female in the passenger seat. He went outside to record the license plate number but then the person who he had heard trying to break into the house — possibly for the second time that day — returned to the car and proceeded to attempt to run over the grandson.

At this point, the grandson fired shots. He called for police just after 4 a.m. and reported the incident.

According to MLive, the perpetrators drove away but the man was hit with birdshot and drove to a local hospital. Police learned the suspect was on the run for violating parole.

Sgt. Greg Klecker said the suspect, who was still in the hospital Monday for wounds from the birdshot, is being cooperative and that he expects the man will be presented with charges of first-degree home invasion, according to MLive. Klecker also said the timeline of events is being reviewed to see if the grandson who shot the suspect will face any charges as well.

[Blind groper]

Another anecdote from Seth.

It does not matter whether a specific anecdote is true or not. It is a single event, and single events do not relate to trends. To determine trends, we need statistics, preferably nation wide, and that is what I quote.

The people who rely on anecdotes tend to be the people without rational arguments to offer. For example, anecdotes are the stock in trade of quack doctors. Real doctors use proper clinical trial results with statistical breakdown. Anyone using an anecdote is basically saying : "Look at me. I got no real evidence, so I am trying to pull the wool over your eyes with an anecdote."

[Collector1337]

Gun ownership and sales are on the rise and have been for quite some time. This is a fact.

All crime, not just "gun crime," has been on the decline for decades and continues to drop. This is a fact.

Both are "statistical" facts which are undeniable.


Anyone who comes to the conclusion, "more guns = more crime" who knows these facts is a complete fucking moron.

[Seth]

Another anecdote from Seth.

It does not matter whether a specific anecdote is true or not.

It matters a lot to each specific non-victim, and that's all that counts.

It is a single event, and single events do not relate to trends.

Er, you can't determine a trend without assembling single-event data points. Any idiot knows that.

To determine trends, we need statistics, preferably nation wide, and that is what I quote.

Er, that's what the FBI actually did...released nationwide statistics that crime is down 49 percent in the last 40 years. You can go gather data points regarding how many guns there are in circulation if you like, but I'll rest my case on the fact that more than two million NICS checks were done after Obama was elected.

Oh wait, here it is right here:

NICS checks increased 53 percent during the three-month period of November 2012 through January 2013, as compared to the same three months a year earlier, according to the FBI.
Source: http://www.nraila.org/legislation/feder ... onths.aspx

More guns, less crime. Unequivocal, undeniable documented "statistical" fact. You lose again.

The people who rely on anecdotes tend to be the people without rational arguments to offer. For example, anecdotes are the stock in trade of quack doctors. Real doctors use proper clinical trial results with statistical breakdown. Anyone using an anecdote is basically saying : "Look at me. I got no real evidence, so I am trying to pull the wool over your eyes with an anecdote."

Every individual DGU is an "anecdote" to you, but it's a fact to everyone else. And every individual DGU completely justifies and vindicates the RKBA and the 2nd Amendment completely and utterly each and every time it happens because personal safety, like personal liberty, is not a statistical matter. You can no more base a rational argument on self defense on statistics than you can say that only 61.4 percent of people have the right to free speech, or the right to freely exercise religion, or the right to a fair trial.

You obviously don't understand the concept of individual rights. That's a common affliction of Marxist useful idiots.

[Blind groper]

Gun ownership and sales are on the rise and have been for quite some time. This is a fact.

All crime, not just "gun crime," has been on the decline for decades and continues to drop. This is a fact.

As I pointed out before, two separate surveys show the number of people buying guns is falling. What appears to be rising is the number of guns owned by individual gun nutters. That is quite a different thing. With fewer people owning guns, gun crime falls. Very simple, really.

[Blind groper]

To Seth.

I just pointed out, gun nutters are buying more guns. Hence the extra number of checks. Simple really. I bet it applies to you and Collector. As our resident gun nutters, tell me you have not bought extra guns over the past few years. Well, so have lots more of the 100 million odd gun freaks.

What is good to see, though, the total number of gun loving idiots is falling, as more Americans wake up to sanity.

On the statistics. As I pointed out from FBI figures, in 11 years there were almost 160, 000 murders, and only 2, 500 cases where a citizen killed a felon. 2, 500 is a sufficient pool to allow you a lot of meaningless anecdotes, but it is still only 1.5% of murders. Not very meaningful!

[Collector1337]

Gun ownership and sales are on the rise and have been for quite some time. This is a fact.

All crime, not just "gun crime," has been on the decline for decades and continues to drop. This is a fact.

As I pointed out before, two separate surveys show the number of people buying guns is falling. What appears to be rising is the number of guns owned by individual gun nutters. That is quite a different thing. With fewer people owning guns, gun crime falls. Very simple, really.

Absolute lies. Gun ownership is up, especially among women.