Max Clifford charged with 11 indecent assaults

[JimC]

Hall is odious, Savile was odious, Clifford is odious. As a father of daughters, I have no problem condemning any man who lays an inappropriate finger on a nine-year-old girl. I didn't think I'd need to say that.

But I still think that these recent cases raise a number of grey areas (some of which my examples relate to) which we as a society should be discussing. Laws are inherently conservative with a small "c", and we should be discussing the degree to which those which exist in relation to these matters are fit for purpose, rather than continuing to allow ourselves to be manipulated by tabloidy outcries.

You have mentioned 'grey areas' a few times, but I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Personally I think a teacher (or other 'leader') who has authority over young people should not be having sex with them under pretty well any circumstances. One could argue that the young person is incapable of informed consent and that the nature of the power relationship by definition means that this power is being abused. For a while I was the line manager for our local authority's 'named person', i.e. the guy who did the initial investigations into complaints of this type in schools. I recall a few cases over the years of male teachers shagging their pupils. None of them ended well for either party - though probably worse for the male whose life was in shreds at the end of it all.

Absolutely agree about the teachers, Rum, no doubt whatsoever...

But the grey areas John was talking about are members of a peer group, with a few years difference...

[Rum]

Age! I knew that the officer mentioned in my post above wasn't called the 'named person' but for the life of me I couldn't recall the title. It niggled at me because I remember it always struck me as slightly incongruous given the seriousness of some of the things he/she had to deal with.

After I racked my brains for almost ten minutes it came back to me. The officer was called the 'LADO' (Local Authority Desiognated Officer) - pronounced 'laddo'...

Always struck me as odd...

Age..*sigh*

[JimC]

We had a young female teacher a few years ago who was having it away with one of our senior students...

She (quite rightly) got the sack, and was permanently barred from teaching, but I gather no criminal charges were laid...

That seemed reasonable to me...

[En_Route]

In my prime as an academic , I drew the line at heavy petting. Unless , of course the student in question was angling for a First, in which case the sky was the limit.

[John_fi_Skye]

Glad we've got back to serious debate.

Yeah, I don't know, Rum. I'm a bit busy just now for a long post, but certainly the types of things Jim said I was thinking about. But maybe others, too. Didn't Picasso father a child when he was 72? How much younger than himself was the woman? 30+ years? Now, OK, he was especially charismatic, and if the woman was of mature years she was certainly old enough to make up her mind. But how far back do you then allow that such a differential is fine? Eg, surely nobody would say it was fine if he were 42 and she were 12 - I certainly wouldn't say that was fine. But is 52 and 22 fine? Probably most folk would say yes. So what about 46 and 16?

And I agree (and have aleady said) that being in a position of responsibility makes a difference, but again I think there are greys: so teacher-pupil - NO. Doctor-patient - NO. Youth leader-youth club member - NO. Boss-employee? Team leader of one section and employee in another?

Debate required.

[Cormac]

Why would there be any drama between a 15 year old and a 17 year old? They're both minors.

If the age of consent was 16 in a given jurisdiction (and I know it varies) then technically the 17 year old boy could be prosecuted for having sex with the 15 year old girl. My post was an attempt to give a little flexibility...

(I suppose it also applies if a 17 year old girl is having sex with a 15 year old boy, though that would be a rarer event, most likely...)

In Ireland today, a 14 year old boy who has sex with a 15 year old girl will get a criminal conviction for statutory rape. She will get a hug, and be sent home.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

There are two real conditions for consensual sex: -

Were both parties physically mature enough for the act?
Were both parties emotionally mature enough to give informed consent?

Unfortunately, trying to base a law around such vague conditions is a minefield - hence the catch-all "age of consent" - which is set at an age at which, in the onion of the legislators, both above conditions will be met by the overwhelming majority of people.

However, there are individuals of both sexes that are physically capable and emotionally mature enough to have sex at far younger ages - and you can bet they are going to do it whether the law says they are old enough or not! Likewise, there are older individuals that are not physically or emotionally mature enough.

The law on this subject is a botch. But it has no choice but to be a botch. What is necessary is that the judiciary recognise that fact and use discretion and common-sense as much as the law allows.

[Clinton Huxley]

aye, the police and the CPS should and do take the context into account. As a heurestic, keep it in your pants unless you know your partner is over 16 aint that difficult to remember.

[klr]

Re Stuart Hall: I never realised until he was arrested a couple of months ago that he was involved in the likes of It's A Knockout. I knew only of the eccentric and brilliantly entertaining football reports. Now those will be erased from official history and memory, and only the foul stench of his misdeeds will remain.

The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones

I guuess The Bard was right after all ...

[Thinking Aloud]

Re Stuart Hall: I never realised until he was arrested a couple of months ago that he was involved in the likes of It's A Knockout. I knew only of the eccentric and brilliantly entertaining football reports. Now those will be erased from official history and memory, and only the foul stench of his misdeeds will remain.

He was, indeed the voice and the famous laugh of "It's A Knockout", and fronted the BBC North West News for a long time while I was growing up.

[John_fi_Skye]

Re Stuart Hall: I never realised until he was arrested a couple of months ago that he was involved in the likes of It's A Knockout. I knew only of the eccentric and brilliantly entertaining football reports. Now those will be erased from official history and memory, and only the foul stench of his misdeeds will remain.

He was, indeed the voice and the famous laugh of "It's A Knockout", and fronted the BBC North West News for a long time while I was growing up.

It's a Knockout was painful, and he was always a complete arse. There are plenty of them in popular "entertainment".

[Collector1337]

Why would there be any drama between a 15 year old and a 17 year old? They're both minors.

If the age of consent was 16 in a given jurisdiction (and I know it varies) then technically the 17 year old boy could be prosecuted for having sex with the 15 year old girl. My post was an attempt to give a little flexibility...

(I suppose it also applies if a 17 year old girl is having sex with a 15 year old boy, though that would be a rarer event, most likely...)

In Ireland today, a 14 year old boy who has sex with a 15 year old girl will get a criminal conviction for statutory rape. She will get a hug, and be sent home.

WTF? That's clearly morally and ethically wrong.

[JimC]

Why would there be any drama between a 15 year old and a 17 year old? They're both minors.

If the age of consent was 16 in a given jurisdiction (and I know it varies) then technically the 17 year old boy could be prosecuted for having sex with the 15 year old girl. My post was an attempt to give a little flexibility...

(I suppose it also applies if a 17 year old girl is having sex with a 15 year old boy, though that would be a rarer event, most likely...)

In Ireland today, a 14 year old boy who has sex with a 15 year old girl will get a criminal conviction for statutory rape. She will get a hug, and be sent home.

WTF? That's clearly morally and ethically wrong.

In the US, would the laws in this area vary a lot from state to state?

We have a state based system too, but I think that most laws are fairly uniform, with the differences between the Australian states only in minor details...

[Cormac]

Why would there be any drama between a 15 year old and a 17 year old? They're both minors.

If the age of consent was 16 in a given jurisdiction (and I know it varies) then technically the 17 year old boy could be prosecuted for having sex with the 15 year old girl. My post was an attempt to give a little flexibility...

(I suppose it also applies if a 17 year old girl is having sex with a 15 year old boy, though that would be a rarer event, most likely...)

In Ireland today, a 14 year old boy who has sex with a 15 year old girl will get a criminal conviction for statutory rape. She will get a hug, and be sent home.

WTF? That's clearly morally and ethically wrong.

Two. And it isn't an old law either.

[En_Route]

Why would there be any drama between a 15 year old and a 17 year old? They're both minors.

If the age of consent was 16 in a given jurisdiction (and I know it varies) then technically the 17 year old boy could be prosecuted for having sex with the 15 year old girl. My post was an attempt to give a little flexibility...

(I suppose it also applies if a 17 year old girl is having sex with a 15 year old boy, though that would be a rarer event, most likely...)

In Ireland today, a 14 year old boy who has sex with a 15 year old girl will get a criminal conviction for statutory rape. She will get a hug, and be sent home.

WTF? That's clearly morally and ethically wrong.

Out of interest, where are these incontrovertible moral principles to be found?