Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:17 pm

Gallstones wrote:The Amendment says .."shall not be infringed." You using a different dictionary from the rest of us?
Anyone who trusts their government to look out for the common people's best interests is a naive, fool and easy fodder for wolves.
Well, it says, "A well-regulated Militia being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

There are two questions:

1. What is the extent of the people's right to keep and bear arms?
2. When does a regulation or rulemaking about arms become an infringement?

Not all regulations are an infringement. For example, under the First Amendment free speech clause, there can be reasonable time, place and manner restriction -- like - while free speech is protected, the state can prohibit people from driving trucks down the street with loudspeakers at midnight blaring messages, and they can prohibit collection agents from standing in front of your house with a sign saying "Gallstones is late on her payments" even if it's absolutely true. That is generally not considered an infringement on free speech. It's reasonable regulation.

Also, the right to keep and bear "arms" is limited to "arms." What is an arm? If we go by the "intent of the drafter" which is what some folks like to do, then it means muzzle loading smooth bore muskets. But, some people define it as any hand held projectile weapon -- would that include, though, rocket propelled grenades? Stinger missiles? Laser weapons? Radioactive tipped ammo? Exploding ammo? Armor piercing? Bazookas?

The point is, we have to define an "arm." I think there is room to limit the definition of an "arm" at some point, and to limit the kind and power of ammo. Also, we can do things like register -- enact product safety and design rules, etc. -- licensing - so long as those rules don't operate to infringe on the right to keep and bear arms. If you can keep and bear an arm, but you have to register the arm, has your right been violated? If yes, how so?

And, does the right to keep and bear arms mean that there can be no regulations on the sale/transfer of the arms? I can see lots of such regulations that would still allow people to keep and bear arms.

And, does the right to keep and bear arms mean "any" arm, or does the "well-regulated" bit mean that the government can prescribe the type, size and characteristics of the arms that the militia is to have?

I think the amendment is vague and poorly written. It is grammatically incorrect. And, there are more issues involved than just "arm=gun" and that means that I can own and carry any gun, anytime, anywhere, anyhow, with whatever ammo, in whatever quantities, and nobody can ever force me to register or license anything.

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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

Post by Blind groper » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:51 pm

Plus the fact that this debate is not really about what American law says. We agree (except Gallstones, Seth, and Coito) that the law on guns is too lax. The debate is more about what the law should say than what it does say under the current barbaric set up.

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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:59 pm

Blind groper wrote:Plus the fact that this debate is not really about what American law says. We agree (except Gallstones, Seth, and Coito) that the law on guns is too lax. The debate is more about what the law should say than what it does say under the current barbaric set up.
Another person unwilling to accept the words I write as expressive of my view...instead you insist on telling me, incorrectly, what I think. I have voiced support for beefing up gun laws. Can you accept that, rather than just make shit up? Or do you just hold discussions without regard for what others actually are saying?

The discussion is not only about what the law should say, it's about what the law could say under the current constitution. My position is that even under the current second amendment, there is room for reasonable regulations, even at the federal level.

I don't think too many people agree with you on your extreme view of who should and should not be permitted to have guns, though, and with your narrow definition of "legitimate" purpose." The discussion is not every pro-gun ownership person against your approach. There are gradations in between.

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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

Post by Seth » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:03 am

Ian wrote:Jeez Gallstones, you act like there have been too many gun restrictions already. The opposite is true - gun laws have gotten very lax over the last thirty years.
Horseshit.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

Post by Seth » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:09 am

Tero wrote:
Ian wrote:Jeez Gallstones, you act like there have been too many gun restrictions already. The opposite is true - gun laws have gotten very lax over the last thirty years.
:this:

Put them criminals..who have a record.. back in jail, just for carrying a gun. Give them 10 years.
It's been federal law for a long, long time that any "criminal" (felon) who possesses so much as a single round of ammunition is supposed to get an automatic five year prison sentence in federal prison, and that's on top of any state charges.

Problem is, the feds (particularly the Democrats) don't enforce the laws that are ALREADY ON THE BOOKS.

For example, thousands of disqualified persons attempted to purchase firearms and falsified the Form 4473 but were rejected by the NICS system, but only 40 of them were actually prosecuted by the feds. There should be 100 percent enforcement of that particular law, but politics and economics interfere.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

Post by Seth » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:46 pm

And again...
Crime
Intruder With a Baseball Bat Vs. Texas Man With a Shotgun — Here’s What Happened
Apr. 24, 2013 10:37pm Jason Howerton

195
929
7
1
151

Midland, Texas Man Shoots, Kills Home Intruder Armed With Baseball Bat

(FILE)

A man in Midland, Texas shot and killed an intruder who attempted to break into his residence on Tuesday night, the Midland Reporter-Telegram reports. The intruder was armed with a baseball bat.

Police in Midland responded to the shooting at around midnight on Tuesday where they found 32-year-old Samuel Pompa with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was transported to Midland Memorial Hospital where he later died from his injuries, according to a press release from the city’s public information officer.

Police say Pompa tried to break into the residence of a 19-year-old who was living in a different unit but at the same address as him. It was likely an apartment complex, however, the reports did not confirm that.

The victim in the case told police that he used his shotgun to protect himself and others in his residence after Pompa tried to gain entry armed with a baseball bat. Police have not arrested anyone in connection with Pompa’s death.

“An autopsy will be conducted, and after it is completed the case will be sent to the District Attorney’s Office,” the Reporter-Telegram adds.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

Post by Gallstones » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:17 pm

Gun carrying man ends stabbing spree at Salt Lake grocery store
04.26.13
SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - A citizen with a gun stopped a knife wielding man as he began stabbing people Thursday evening at the downtown Salt Lake City Smith's store.

Police say the suspect purchased a knife inside the store and then turned it into a weapon. Smith's employee Dorothy Espinoza says, "He pulled it out and stood outside the Smiths in the foyer. And just started stabbing people and yelling you killed my people. You killed my people."

Espinoza says, the knife wielding man seriously injured two people. "There is blood all over. One got stabbed in the stomach and got stabbed in the head and held his hands and got stabbed all over the arms."

Then, before the suspect could find another victim - a citizen with a gun stopped the madness. "A guy pulled gun on him and told him to drop his weapon or he would shoot him. So, he dropped his weapon and the people from Smith's grabbed him."

By the time officers arrived the suspect had been subdued by employees and shoppers. Police had high praise for gun carrying man who ended the hysteria. Lt. Brian Purvis said, "This was a volatile situation that could have gotten worse. We can only assume from what we saw it could have gotten worse. He was definitely in the right place at the right time."
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

Post by Collector1337 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:39 pm

I am aghast at all the lies and propaganda anti-gun idiots believe and perpetuate.

I almost vomited reading the last 6-7 pages of this thread.

I own some pistols, AR-15s, AK-47s, a few other long guns, a small collection, really.

So, my question to the anti-gun idiots is: I already own all this stuff. I own a 100 round drum for an AR-15 and several 30 round magazines for my ARs and AK. This is the stuff anti-gun idiots want banned. So, doesn't me already owning all this stuff kind of crush your hope of banning it?

I don't even really need to be pro-2nd Amendment and defend rights. Since, I already "got mine" so to speak, but I defend rights anyway.

So, since millions of Americans own AR-15s as it is the number one selling rifle in the US, how is banning them going to do anything?

What do you anti-gun morons plan to do with me, and millions of others like me who already own all the stuff you want to ban?
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

Post by JimC » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:51 pm

Collector1337 wrote:

What do you anti-gun morons plan to do with me, and millions of others like me who already own all the stuff you want to ban?
Hope that you go out in a blaze of glory in a massive shoot-out with men in black suits in helicopters, of course...

It would make entertaining footage... :tea:
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

Post by Collector1337 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:58 pm

JimC wrote:
Collector1337 wrote:

What do you anti-gun morons plan to do with me, and millions of others like me who already own all the stuff you want to ban?
Hope that you go out in a blaze of glory in a massive shoot-out with men in black suits in helicopters, of course...

It would make entertaining footage... :tea:
So, no actual response?

Just douchebaggery?

It's pretty telling that you would find it "entertaining" to watch the deaths of me and the "men in black suits" whom I would supposedly hypothetically kill. How "civilized" of you.
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

Post by Gallstones » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:08 pm

JimC wrote:
Collector1337 wrote:

What do you anti-gun morons plan to do with me, and millions of others like me who already own all the stuff you want to ban?
Hope that you go out in a blaze of glory in a massive shoot-out with men in black suits in helicopters, of course...

It would make entertaining footage... :tea:
So.....who's violent, who fantasizes about violence, who wishes violence on others?
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

Post by FBM » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:18 pm

Gallstones wrote:Gun carrying man ends stabbing spree at Salt Lake grocery store
04.26.13
SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - A citizen with a gun stopped a knife wielding man as he began stabbing people Thursday evening at the downtown Salt Lake City Smith's store.

Police say the suspect purchased a knife inside the store and then turned it into a weapon. Smith's employee Dorothy Espinoza says, "He pulled it out and stood outside the Smiths in the foyer. And just started stabbing people and yelling you killed my people. You killed my people."

Espinoza says, the knife wielding man seriously injured two people. "There is blood all over. One got stabbed in the stomach and got stabbed in the head and held his hands and got stabbed all over the arms."

Then, before the suspect could find another victim - a citizen with a gun stopped the madness. "A guy pulled gun on him and told him to drop his weapon or he would shoot him. So, he dropped his weapon and the people from Smith's grabbed him."

By the time officers arrived the suspect had been subdued by employees and shoppers. Police had high praise for gun carrying man who ended the hysteria. Lt. Brian Purvis said, "This was a volatile situation that could have gotten worse. We can only assume from what we saw it could have gotten worse. He was definitely in the right place at the right time."
Hmm. I'm thinking that if a guy had pulled a gun in a store and shot two people, it would probably be CNN's leading story. But instead, it's a gun owner stopping a guy with a knife, so hardly anybody hears about it. :what:
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

Post by JimC » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:00 am

Collector1337 wrote:
JimC wrote:
Collector1337 wrote:

What do you anti-gun morons plan to do with me, and millions of others like me who already own all the stuff you want to ban?
Hope that you go out in a blaze of glory in a massive shoot-out with men in black suits in helicopters, of course...

It would make entertaining footage... :tea:
So, no actual response?

Just douchebaggery?

It's pretty telling that you would find it "entertaining" to watch the deaths of me and the "men in black suits" whom I would supposedly hypothetically kill. How "civilized" of you.
Live by the sword, die by the sword...
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

Post by Seth » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:21 am

JimC wrote:
Collector1337 wrote:
JimC wrote:
Collector1337 wrote:

What do you anti-gun morons plan to do with me, and millions of others like me who already own all the stuff you want to ban?
Hope that you go out in a blaze of glory in a massive shoot-out with men in black suits in helicopters, of course...

It would make entertaining footage... :tea:
So, no actual response?

Just douchebaggery?

It's pretty telling that you would find it "entertaining" to watch the deaths of me and the "men in black suits" whom I would supposedly hypothetically kill. How "civilized" of you.
Live by the sword, die by the sword...
Peace through superior firepower. Trust an asshole to bring a sword to a gunfight. Of course there's the preacher in Utah who used his Samurai sword to put a stop to an attack on his neighbor. Any tool that will do the job will do.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

Post by rainbow » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:05 am

Seth wrote: Peace through superior firepower. Trust an asshole to bring a sword to a gunfight. Of course there's the preacher in Utah who used his Samurai sword to put a stop to an attack on his neighbor. Any tool that will do the job will do.
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