Boston Marathon hit by explosions

[MrJonno]

http://www.contractorcalculator.co.uk/i ... erica.aspx

Looks like there are some tax shenanigans in the US when it comes to contractors, with the employer doing more of the fiddling which is sort of understandable as British employers do have various taxes to pay to employ someone but the don't have to bother with what I assume is expensive medical care

[Coito ergo sum]

http://www.contractorcalculator.co.uk/i ... erica.aspx

Looks like there are some tax shenanigans in the US when it comes to contractors, with the employer doing more of the fiddling which is sort of understandable as British employers do have various taxes to pay to employ someone but the don't have to bother with what I assume is expensive medical care

That is a different issue than people cheating to obtain benefits to which they are not entitled.

If a guy makes $50,000 per year, and pretends to make nothing because he can hide the income, and then collects welfare, food stamp money, and Medicaid when he's not entitled to any of it because $50k a year is enough for him to live on and he's not poor because that is more than the average family income, then isn't that wrong?

[MrJonno]

Benefit fraud is wrong just saying there are far better targets to go for.

You get programmes about benefit fraud investigators in the UK, typically they spend £1000's and months-years of their time plus far more that in legal costs to catch someone who might have defrauded the state by £5000. They get 2 months in jail which costs even more and then get asked to pay it back at 50p per week for the next 30 years.

Far better concentrating on getting unemployment down to low levels and where being long term unemployed really does stand out

[Clinton Huxley]

There were some stats in the Guardian showing that benefits fraud in the UK was a) a lot lower than the Daily Mail reader on the Clapham omnibus thought it was and b) more than offset by people being underpaid on benefits.

Still, we have to have a daily hate against the poor. Scum, the lot of them.

[Coito ergo sum]

Benefit fraud is wrong just saying there are far better targets to go for.

Well, when the question was about this 26 year old healthy, able-bodied dickwad fraudulently claiming benefits while he used his time to get all Jihadized and then plot and plan a bombing, there really aren't any.

You get programmes about benefit fraud investigators in the UK, typically they spend £1000's and months-years of their time plus far more that in legal costs to catch someone who might have defrauded the state by £5000. They get 2 months in jail which costs even more and then get asked to pay it back at 50p per week for the next 30 years.

That's the incompetence of the bureaucracy. This stuff isn't that difficult to stop. It is difficult to stop only because 1/2 the political spectrum wants to hamper the ability of the government to verify that money is going to those entitled to it.

Far better concentrating on getting unemployment down to low levels and where being long term unemployed really does stand out

Sure, and the way to do that is by raising taxes on individuals and businesses, increasing barriers to entry, increasing the costs incurred by employers in hiring and employing employees, and increasing the cost of doing business through addition of red tape and complex regulatory schemes.

[Coito ergo sum]

There were some stats in the Guardian showing that benefits fraud in the UK was a) a lot lower than the Daily Mail reader on the Clapham omnibus thought it was and b) more than offset by people being underpaid on benefits.

Still, we have to have a daily hate against the poor. Scum, the lot of them.

Being against fraud is not being against the poor. It's being in favor of the poor. Someone making decent money and falsely claiming benefits to which they are not entitled is hurting the poor. Yes, people committing fraud to collect benefits are scum. The poor qua poor are not.

Why is it that being in favor of the poor, to so many of you, means we have to turn a blind I to people who aren't poor collecting benefits that are meant to go to the poor?

[mistermack]

There were some stats in the Guardian showing that benefits fraud in the UK was a) a lot lower than the Daily Mail reader on the Clapham omnibus thought it was and b) more than offset by people being underpaid on benefits.

Still, we have to have a daily hate against the poor. Scum, the lot of them.

Most of these so called "examples" are pure invention by the posters.
It there isn't a link to a court case, I would just treat it as a pack of lies.

It's just too easy to sit in front of a screen, and make it all up.

[pErvinalia]

I know you're taking the piss, and being rightly sarcastic about a causal link...

But...

If the guy had been fully involved in something, a challenging career or course of studies, then maybe the festering resentment and ultimate capture by jihadist ideas wouldn't have happened...

The devil finds work for idle hands...

Quite possibly true. It's just that it is the daily fail, and they capitalised WELFARE just to make sure we all got the message.

Not a "gateway" to terrorism, but in this country there is too much dole fraud. People lie through their teeth and get free stuff.

Probably because you have terrible social welfare there for the less well off.

Clearly not, but not knowing what you're talking about has never stopped you before.

Are you seriously going to try and tell us that the US has social security levels near the likes of Europe and Australia? Seriously?

If I was struggling to pay medical costs and food etc, I'd probably rort the system as much as I could. And it's typical of conservatives like you to get all frothy about the tiny amounts of money involved in welfare cheating, and not about the insane amounts of corporate welfare that go on in your country.

Cock-knocker, I'm not conservative,

Bro, you're conservative.

and I am very much against corporate welfare, which is why I have been against all the bailouts and Stimulus payments to corporations. I am against subsidies to private corporations in general Yes, I'm against welfare fraud, and I bet you are more in support of corporate welfare than I am, because I bet you 100% support bailing out financial instituations, automobile companies and the like, right?

Wrong.

Try and go off at rich people like you just did against poor/disadvantaged people (in a forum representing the media's portrayal of society) and watch the comments about "class warfare" roll in. I bet you don't go off at rich people like you do at poor people. Most people don't because they have bought into this "class warfare" bogus narrative. I've never seen you or any conservatives (or many liberals, either) show that level of disgust for the insane amounts of wealth robbery going on at the top end of town. If you don't want to be criticised as a conservative, get some fucking perspective and stop buying into the false media narrative.

The people I am referring to are probably making more money than you. Only they do it under the table. I know illegals here in the US that make around $80,000 per year, by their own admission, and get food stamps and Medicaid because they hide their income.

No one doubts that these people exist. The point is, how much of a problem is it in terms of numbers and dollars? Particularly dollars when compared to the staggering sums being ripped off the country by the rich.

I know a couple, for example, that are having a baby. The mother works as a cleaning lady, mainly working with unreported income (I know this, because she has disclosed that she was collecting EBT (food stamps -- food assistance - a monthly stipend to pay for groceries and stuff, although it can be used for almost anything) and other government assistance. So, she must have lied about the money she makes, because she has a full weekly schedule of houses. What they do is they ask to be paid in cash, or they cash checks at check-cashing stores and such, so they can try to hide the money.

Well, so the mother and father registered the baby's birth without a father listed, even though they know who the father is. They won't get married and he won't legally acknowledge the kid. So, she can keep applying for benefits as single mom making no money. They are scammers -- they even know to not bring a car safety seat to the hospital, because they know that if they don't have one and if they say they can't afford one, then the hospital will provide them with a free one.

They are not isolated cases. The system is rife with such abject scum. Lying pieces of human refuse.

Didn't read it. I get too upset hearing a conservative getting stuck into the poor, when it is the politicians and rich in your country that are engaged in the biggest heist. Conservatives can fuck off and die as far as I am concerned. Conservatives are the scum of the earth.

The point is - they aren't fucking poor. A cleaning lady here makes $35k easy. They don't pay taxes on it, because they hid the fucking money. And, the husband I was referring to is in construction and flooring, and together they most likely make $100,000 a year. He owns a house -- fairly nice -- and a brand new truck.

Conservatives can fuck off, as far as I'm concerned, too. It's not "conservative" to be against people robbing and committing fraud.

It is, though, when you get all frothy and emotive about those towards the bottom of the scale, and not those at the top of the scale. When I hear you railing against rich tax cheats and corporate welfare recipients in the same emotive and hyperbolic language that you used for working/poor people, then I'll consider cutting you some slack.

To be in favor of it, to defend it like you do, that takes a special kind of assholery that is hard to come by. It's someone like you who is among the dregs of society. Bitching for handouts and demanding free stuff, and claiming that it is good for people to commit fraud.

Lol. That's a special kind of misrepresentation. I'm sorry I suggested you should die. I wasn't being literal. No need to erect crazy strawmen.

EDIT - oh, and of course, when they scam like this, they get medicaid, so they pay nothing to have the baby. NOTHING. No deductibles. Nothing. They even get free infant formula.

OMG the horror!!1! That must be like 10's of dollars, right? :fuckoff:

To have a baby? Out of pocket, the cost is more like $20k or $30k all totalled. If you pay for insurance, like most people do, then you pay an insurance premium and are entitled to the benefits. On top of that, most people pay their taxes, too, which funds the Medicaid and other dole benefits.

The deadbeats that evade paying taxes, and commit fraud by understating their incomes to collect benefits they aren't entitled to are criminals. They are committing fraud crimes. But, by all means, defend them.

I'm highlighting the hypocrisy of conservatives getting all worked up over relatively small sums of money compared to the giant sums of money involved at the top end of town. Surely you can get this simple point?

[pErvinalia]

Benefit fraud is wrong just saying there are far better targets to go for.

You get programmes about benefit fraud investigators in the UK, typically they spend £1000's and months-years of their time plus far more that in legal costs to catch someone who might have defrauded the state by £5000. They get 2 months in jail which costs even more and then get asked to pay it back at 50p per week for the next 30 years.

Far better concentrating on getting unemployment down to low levels and where being long term unemployed really does stand out

Yep, and this is where the 'conservative-ness' comes in. Conservatives see this as what's called a "moral hazard". So much of conservative ideology can be explained by moralising. It's wrong for poor/disadvantaged/working-class people to game the system, on principle. So it doesn't matter the amounts involved, or whether you would be cutting off your nose to spite your face to catch them. However, at the other end of town, we have "the wealth creators". Because they allegedly create the wealth, they are not morally equivalent to everyone else. Essentially, they are cut some slack, because it is believed that they help society, where as the poor/workers are disadvantaged because of their poor work ethic and laziness. It's all twisted morals.

As you say, what should be done (and to be fair, is done in many cases), is to do a cost-benefit analysis of bothering with this. Australia is different than the UK in that everyone does a tax-return because we are all able to get something back due to deductions or being over-taxed due to working overtime or a second job or whatever. But it's up to us to work out our amount of refund. There is undoubtedly many people scamming a few extra dollars out of their refund, but it's just not worth the time and effort for the tax department to worry about that. They do conduct focussed audits each year (that is, they focus on an industry and take random samples of tax returns from workers in that industry and check them), and they audit people with a bad track record.

[pErvinalia]

There were some stats in the Guardian showing that benefits fraud in the UK was a) a lot lower than the Daily Mail reader on the Clapham omnibus thought it was and b) more than offset by people being underpaid on benefits.

Still, we have to have a daily hate against the poor. Scum, the lot of them.

Yep, this sums it up. The public perception of welfare fraud is way out of kilter with the reality, thanks to a bogus media narrative.

[Jason]

Bombs kill several and wound dozens to welfare fraud. Only on Rationalia folks!

[Hermit]

They must have committed welfare fraud, because the wife working 80 hours a week as a home healthcare provider would put them over the threshold for collecting welfare. Either that, or the system in Massachusetts is woefully underpoliced.

Or they did not receive welfare support when they were not entitled to it. From the linked article you apparently did not bother to read: "his wife's income made the couple ineligible for welfare and they stopped receiving state money in 2012."

in this country there is too much dole fraud. People lie through their teeth and get free stuff.

I know a couple, for example, that are having a baby. The mother works as a cleaning lady, mainly working with unreported income (I know this, because she has disclosed that she was collecting EBT (food stamps -- food assistance - a monthly stipend to pay for groceries and stuff, although it can be used for almost anything) and other government assistance. So, she must have lied about the money she makes, because she has a full weekly schedule of houses. What they do is they ask to be paid in cash, or they cash checks at check-cashing stores and such, so they can try to hide the money.

Well, so the mother and father registered the baby's birth without a father listed, even though they know who the father is. They won't get married and he won't legally acknowledge the kid. So, she can keep applying for benefits as single mom making no money. They are scammers -- they even know to not bring a car safety seat to the hospital, because they know that if they don't have one and if they say they can't afford one, then the hospital will provide them with a free one.

They are not isolated cases. The system is rife with such abject scum. Lying pieces of human refuse.

EDIT - oh, and of course, when they scam like this, they get medicaid, so they pay nothing to have the baby. NOTHING. No deductibles. Nothing. They even get free infant formula.

Yes, welfare fraud is reprehensible, but in monetary comparison it pales into insignificance compared to business fraud. Welfare fraud costs millions of dollars. Business fraud goes into the trillions.

Now, where is that micro-violin?

[Rum]

Quite so. It was essentially fraud which brought the economies of the world to its knees four years ago. The poor are paying for that, not the bankers and dealers in money.

[Coito ergo sum]

Quite possibly true. It's just that it is the daily fail, and they capitalised WELFARE just to make sure we all got the message.

Not a "gateway" to terrorism, but in this country there is too much dole fraud. People lie through their teeth and get free stuff.

Probably because you have terrible social welfare there for the less well off.

Clearly not, but not knowing what you're talking about has never stopped you before.

Are you seriously going to try and tell us that the US has social security levels near the likes of Europe and Australia? Seriously?

For the less well off? Absolutely.

For the middle class? No.

If I was struggling to pay medical costs and food etc, I'd probably rort the system as much as I could. And it's typical of conservatives like you to get all frothy about the tiny amounts of money involved in welfare cheating, and not about the insane amounts of corporate welfare that go on in your country.

Cock-knocker, I'm not conservative,

Bro, you're conservative.

A conservative who is atheist, pro gun control, pro abortion rights, pro gay rights, pro drug legalization, pro rights of the criminal defendant, against the death penalty, pro-antitrust laws, against corporate welfare....

Gotcha. In your world, words don't mean anything. it's just namecalling.

and I am very much against corporate welfare, which is why I have been against all the bailouts and Stimulus payments to corporations. I am against subsidies to private corporations in general Yes, I'm against welfare fraud, and I bet you are more in support of corporate welfare than I am, because I bet you 100% support bailing out financial instituations, automobile companies and the like, right?

Wrong.

Try and go off at rich people like you just did against poor/disadvantaged people

I'm not going off on poor/disadvantaged people. I'm going off on people who are making middle class and higher incomes who cheat in order to get benefits. There are a lot of them. Most people who get benefits aren't doing that, but the ones that do are scum.

And, I do go off on rich people who commit fraud.

(in a forum representing the media's portrayal of society) and watch the comments about "class warfare" roll in. I bet you don't go off at rich people like you do at poor people.

I don't "go off" on poor people. You are just hearing something different than I am saying.

Most people don't because they have bought into this "class warfare" bogus narrative. I've never seen you or any conservatives (or many liberals, either) show that level of disgust for the insane amounts of wealth robbery going on at the top end of town. If you don't want to be criticised as a conservative, get some fucking perspective and stop buying into the false media narrative.

I do go off on wealth robbery of any kind.

I'm not buying into a false media narrative. You are. That's what's weird about people like you. You swallow a media narrative, hook, line and sinker, and yet you think you are one of the few who see through it all.

The people I am referring to are probably making more money than you. Only they do it under the table. I know illegals here in the US that make around $80,000 per year, by their own admission, and get food stamps and Medicaid because they hide their income.

No one doubts that these people exist. The point is, how much of a problem is it in terms of numbers and dollars? Particularly dollars when compared to the staggering sums being ripped off the country by the rich.

In the US, it is a big problem because of the availability of "under the table" work.

I know a couple, for example, that are having a baby. The mother works as a cleaning lady, mainly working with unreported income (I know this, because she has disclosed that she was collecting EBT (food stamps -- food assistance - a monthly stipend to pay for groceries and stuff, although it can be used for almost anything) and other government assistance. So, she must have lied about the money she makes, because she has a full weekly schedule of houses. What they do is they ask to be paid in cash, or they cash checks at check-cashing stores and such, so they can try to hide the money.

Well, so the mother and father registered the baby's birth without a father listed, even though they know who the father is. They won't get married and he won't legally acknowledge the kid. So, she can keep applying for benefits as single mom making no money. They are scammers -- they even know to not bring a car safety seat to the hospital, because they know that if they don't have one and if they say they can't afford one, then the hospital will provide them with a free one.

They are not isolated cases. The system is rife with such abject scum. Lying pieces of human refuse.

Didn't read it. I get too upset hearing a conservative getting stuck into the poor, when it is the politicians and rich in your country that are engaged in the biggest heist. Conservatives can fuck off and die as far as I am concerned. Conservatives are the scum of the earth.

The point is - they aren't fucking poor. A cleaning lady here makes $35k easy. They don't pay taxes on it, because they hid the fucking money. And, the husband I was referring to is in construction and flooring, and together they most likely make $100,000 a year. He owns a house -- fairly nice -- and a brand new truck.

Conservatives can fuck off, as far as I'm concerned, too. It's not "conservative" to be against people robbing and committing fraud.

It is, though, when you get all frothy and emotive about those towards the bottom of the scale, and not those at the top of the scale. When I hear you railing against rich tax cheats and corporate welfare recipients in the same emotive and hyperbolic language that you used for working/poor people, then I'll consider cutting you some slack.

I'm not frothy about those towards the bottom of the scale. How retarded are you? I'm frothy at THESE SPECIFIC PEOPLE. People like the Boston bomber guys collecting welfare. THOSE GUYS. Not "those towards the bottom of the scale." Dickheads like the Boston bombers -- healthy, advantaged, young, able-bodied men siphoning off the system. That's who I am frothy about.

I was just railing against "tax cheats" as part of my posts above, and I just railed against corporate welfare recipients and I have done so on other threads many times. You're just too blinded by your own biases, apparently.

Cut ME some slack? Why don't you get some reading comprehension help, and learn to think like an adult. Then maybe I'd take you seriously.

To be in favor of it, to defend it like you do, that takes a special kind of assholery that is hard to come by. It's someone like you who is among the dregs of society. Bitching for handouts and demanding free stuff, and claiming that it is good for people to commit fraud.

Lol. That's a special kind of misrepresentation. I'm sorry I suggested you should die. I wasn't being literal. No need to erect crazy strawmen.

Oh, so you are against benefits fraud? People who commit benefits fraud are liars and scum, yes?

EDIT - oh, and of course, when they scam like this, they get medicaid, so they pay nothing to have the baby. NOTHING. No deductibles. Nothing. They even get free infant formula.

OMG the horror!!1! That must be like 10's of dollars, right? :fuckoff:

To have a baby? Out of pocket, the cost is more like $20k or $30k all totalled. If you pay for insurance, like most people do, then you pay an insurance premium and are entitled to the benefits. On top of that, most people pay their taxes, too, which funds the Medicaid and other dole benefits.

The deadbeats that evade paying taxes, and commit fraud by understating their incomes to collect benefits they aren't entitled to are criminals. They are committing fraud crimes. But, by all means, defend them.

I'm highlighting the hypocrisy of conservatives getting all worked up over relatively small sums of money compared to the giant sums of money involved at the top end of town. Surely you can get this simple point?

It's the point of an idiot.

Feel free to point out any other specific example that you consider worthy of comment and I'll comment on it. I've posted about large white collar frauds before, and corporate welfare. I'm livid about that shit. The scam pulled by the finance industry in 2007-2009, the financial bailouts, the securities fraudsters, the billions of dollars in subsidies to corn industry players, the billions of dollars in subsidies to energy companies -- the list goes on and on.

[Coito ergo sum]

Quite so. It was essentially fraud which brought the economies of the world to its knees four years ago. The poor are paying for that, not the bankers and dealers in money.

...because of corporate welfare. That's what bailouts are.