How is this shit possible? Woman refused abortion, dies

[MiM]

Sounds like loads of excuses to not save that woman's life.

Sounds like they are trying to make it look like a result of bad routines at the hospital, so that they don't have to go into the discussion about changing an inherently faulty law.

[klr]

Sounds like loads of excuses to not save that woman's life.

Sounds like they are trying to make it look like a result of bad routines at the hospital, so that they don't have to go into the discussion about changing an inherently faulty law.

When in trouble, blame the system. Make sure no one individual takes any serious blame. That's the way of the world.

As for that law: It's been an issue for 20 years or more. Successive governments have been afraid to address it for fear of generating a divisive public debate. So those sections of Irish society (on both sides) who have been/are only too ready, willing and able to engage in rancorous debate have to take some of the blame as well IMHO.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If you can get a majority of Merkins to say pot is okay you should be able to get enough Irish saying killing women isn't okay.

[Cormac]

Sounds like loads of excuses to not save that woman's life.

Not really.

Mistakes compounded by inefficiency and bureaucracy meant that there were delays to her prompt treatment.

So far, it is not clear whether or not her pregnancy was linked to her illness, or if a termination would have made a difference to her illness and chances of recovery. The baby did die, but it is not clear if this resulted from her illness.

Right now, a public inquest is being run by a coroner, and all of the facts are in the public domain. All the staff are being questioned and cross-examined under oath.

As this inquest progresses, the questions will be answered. My money is on inefficiency, overload, and a complete misunderstanding of the law. If her life was threatened by the continuation of her pregnancy, the law is quite clear that she would have been entitled to a termination. So either her pregnancy did not threaten her life and the illness was not divretly related, or the hospital made a gross error of judgement and interpretation.

It is evident that bureaucratic failures occurred - for example, blood test results took 7 hours for a very I'll person.

As for the comment about this being a "Catholic Country" - that was not said in any malicious way. The midwife in question was explaining the origin of the law and the limitation on abortion availability in Ireland. It is a fact that at least historically we were a catholic country, and this is why the law is as it is. (Although, I think even now people would prefer the status quo here.

[MiM]

Sounds like loads of excuses to not save that woman's life.

Not really.

Mistakes compounded by inefficiency and bureaucracy meant that there were delays to her prompt treatment.

Oh really?

If there is a law, that requires "real and substantive risk to the life ", or to wait until it is "almost too late" to save the woman, even if the foetus is already a sure gonner, that law is creating situations like this, where cross pressure on the medical staff leads to human error and eventually death

So far, it is not clear whether or not her pregnancy was linked to her illness, or if a termination would have made a difference to her illness and chances of recovery. The baby did die, but it is not clear if this resulted from her illness.

Right now, a public inquest is being run by a coroner, and all of the facts are in the public domain. All the staff are being questioned and cross-examined under oath.

As this inquest progresses, the questions will be answered. My money is on inefficiency, overload, and a complete misunderstanding of the law. If her life was threatened by the continuation of her pregnancy, the law is quite clear that she would have been entitled to a termination. So either her pregnancy did not threaten her life and the illness was not divretly related, or the hospital made a gross error of judgement and interpretation.

For f:s sake, the membranes had ruptured still early in the pregnancy, there was practically no chance for the child to survive, and a 40%? chance for the situation to develop into something dangerous for the woman. And the woman was still made to wait until she got seriously ill before they did anything about it. Every woman's life is threatened every day of a pregnancy, so if what you say is true, abortion should always be legal in Irland . "real and substantive risk to the life " is something else, as this case demonstrated. Hopefully at the least, doctors will start interpreting that differently from now on.

As for the comment about this being a "Catholic Country" - that was not said in any malicious way. The midwife in question was explaining the origin of the law and the limitation on abortion availability in Ireland. It is a fact that at least historically we were a catholic country, and this is why the law is as it is. (Although, I think even now people would prefer the status quo here.

[/quote]
Here I believe you are right.

[Cormac]

Sounds like loads of excuses to not save that woman's life.

Not really.

Mistakes compounded by inefficiency and bureaucracy meant that there were delays to her prompt treatment.

Oh really?

If there is a law, that requires "real and substantive risk to the life ", or to wait until it is "almost too late" to save the woman, even if the foetus is already a sure gonner, that law is creating situations like this, where cross pressure on the medical staff leads to human error and eventually death

So far, it is not clear whether or not her pregnancy was linked to her illness, or if a termination would have made a difference to her illness and chances of recovery. The baby did die, but it is not clear if this resulted from her illness.

Right now, a public inquest is being run by a coroner, and all of the facts are in the public domain. All the staff are being questioned and cross-examined under oath.

As this inquest progresses, the questions will be answered. My money is on inefficiency, overload, and a complete misunderstanding of the law. If her life was threatened by the continuation of her pregnancy, the law is quite clear that she would have been entitled to a termination. So either her pregnancy did not threaten her life and the illness was not divretly related, or the hospital made a gross error of judgement and interpretation.

For f:s sake, the membranes had ruptured still early in the pregnancy, there was practically no chance for the child to survive, and a 40%? chance for the situation to develop into something dangerous for the woman. And the woman was still made to wait until she got seriously ill before they did anything about it. Every woman's life is threatened every day of a pregnancy, so if what you say is true, abortion should always be legal in Irland . "real and substantive risk to the life " is something else, as this case demonstrated. Hopefully at the least, doctors will start interpreting that differently from now on.

As for the comment about this being a "Catholic Country" - that was not said in any malicious way. The midwife in question was explaining the origin of the law and the limitation on abortion availability in Ireland. It is a fact that at least historically we were a catholic country, and this is why the law is as it is. (Although, I think even now people would prefer the status quo here.

Here I believe you are right.[/quote]


To say that every woman's life is threatened every day of a pregnancy is pretty much the same as saying that every person's life is threatened every day they are alive. The vast majority of pregnancies pass by without a problem.

And the point about this case is that if it turns out that her illness was unrelated to her pregnancy, and that a termination would not have helped, then what would be the point in terminating it? The couple definitely wanted children - and what if the hospital had managed to cure her AND kept her pregnancy viable?

As it turns out it looks like the hospital failed to adequaltely diagnose the cause of the illness from the get go.

I am simply waiting for the coroner's findings. I think then we'll be able to distinguish between the substantial amount of media spin and what actualy happened. And this will be the foundation of a just exposition of the truth.

[MrJonno]

Bare in mind in the UK, abortion while in affect is on demand is in theory only if it will cause serious harm to the mother which has become not wanting a baby = serious harm

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Bare in mind in the UK, abortion while in affect is on demand is in theory only if it will cause serious harm to the mother which has become not wanting a baby = serious harm

So that kind of abortion is "allowable" in the UK. But this was Ireland.

[MrJonno]

Bare in mind in the UK, abortion while in affect is on demand is in theory only if it will cause serious harm to the mother which has become not wanting a baby = serious harm

So that kind of abortion is "allowable" in the UK. But this was Ireland.

The point I was trying to make is I doubt if the abortion laws are by design intended to endanger a woman's life even in practice they might have done in this case. How much investigation does the Irish government make into whether an abortion was really needed to protect a woman's life or not?. I would assume to investigate what must be reasonably complex not to mention expensive isnt easy

[Cormac]

Bare in mind in the UK, abortion while in affect is on demand is in theory only if it will cause serious harm to the mother which has become not wanting a baby = serious harm

So that kind of abortion is "allowable" in the UK. But this was Ireland.

The point I was trying to make is I doubt if the abortion laws are by design intended to endanger a woman's life even in practice they might have done in this case. How much investigation does the Irish government make into whether an abortion was really needed to protect a woman's life or not?. I would assume to investigate what must be reasonably complex not to mention expensive isnt easy

I have not yet read the detailed findings of the Coronee, but from media reports it would seem:

1. Basic procedures and practices were not followed, so that blood test results were not read by the relevant doctors
2. Signs of sepsis that were present were not recognised or acted upon until way too late.
3. The doctor's interpreatiin of the law was quite extreme, in that she felt that the life of theother had to be imminently in danger. I would not read that law in the same manner She should have had a termination earlier.
4. While a paraphrased version of "you can't have an abortion in Ireland because this I a Catholic Country was said, but it was by way of explaining the reason why the law is as it is. It was not intended as a triumphalist declaration of Catholic doctrine.

Bottom line:

The reason this lady died is primarily a failure of culture, processes and procedures

[Cormac]

...and stop posting when eyelids are drowsily closing!

[klr]

If basic processes and procedures were so defective in this case, you do have to wonder about the supposed very high standards of maternity care in this country. Ireland has been held up as one of the safest countries in the world in that respect.

[JimC]

Cormac wrote:

While a paraphrased version of "you can't have an abortion in Ireland because this I a Catholic Country was said, but it was by way of explaining the reason why the law is as it is. It was not intended as a triumphalist declaration of Catholic doctrine.

Intentions are hard to judge, but those it is addressed to could have easily and reasonably taken it as a "triumphalist declaration of Catholic doctrine"

And the effect on those hearing it, in some ways, is the thing that matters...

[klr]

Cormac wrote:

While a paraphrased version of "you can't have an abortion in Ireland because this I a Catholic Country was said, but it was by way of explaining the reason why the law is as it is. It was not intended as a triumphalist declaration of Catholic doctrine.

Intentions are hard to judge, but those it is addressed to could have easily and reasonably taken it as a "triumphalist declaration of Catholic doctrine"

And the effect on those hearing it, in some ways, is the thing that matters...

Indeed. Perception is in the eye of the beholder. In some ways it was a good thing that it was said and reported on. While the utterance had no material impact whatsoever on the case itself, it has served to focus minds on just what sort of "Catholic" bias may or may not be embedded in current law and practice.

[Cormac]

Cormac wrote:

While a paraphrased version of "you can't have an abortion in Ireland because this I a Catholic Country was said, but it was by way of explaining the reason why the law is as it is. It was not intended as a triumphalist declaration of Catholic doctrine.

Intentions are hard to judge, but those it is addressed to could have easily and reasonably taken it as a "triumphalist declaration of Catholic doctrine"

And the effect on those hearing it, in some ways, is the thing that matters...

Well - human communication is extremely faulty. I deal with it as a core part of my job every day. It is amazing the difference in interpretations two people can have about the same event - particularly about motivations each ascribes to the other. Akin to our tendency to ascribe agency to natural phenomena, I think.


The point is more that an uninvolved observer could see that this statement could have been made with an entirely different meaning from that seized on by the media. They should have witheld their witchfinder general findings until the Coroner's investigations had completed.