I agree that, realistically, it is necessary, but it is also potentially dangerous, if you let the mandarins (judicial or public servant) have unquestioned powers, and if political oversight is weak. Good, fearless investigative journalism in a diverse media can help, but the more intelligent participation we have by everyday people in the political process the better... I know, I know, we are a fair way from this...rEvolutionist wrote:Bullshit. Government can remain democratic with meritocratic oversight of issues that are simply too complex for Joe Bloggs to understand. What on earth is controversial or disastrous about that?Hermit wrote:Sounds like you advocate democratic government be replaced by a meritocracy, rEvolutionist. That would be a disaster.rEvolutionist wrote:That's a recipe for disaster. (as you can see by the large number of whackjobs you have in the US who talk about overthrowing the gubmint). The ordinary citizen, let alone the very poorly educated citizen is in no position to make interpretations of complex issues like this.Coito ergo sum wrote:It is a role of the SCOTUS to interpret the constitution, but it is also everyone else's role too.rEvolutionist wrote:Who are you or they to interpret the consitution? It's the role of the Supreme Court to interpret the constitution. If they don't have a problem, then why should a bunch of nutjobs be allowed to attack the gumbint because they personally don't like a civil society?
...
We all interpret the Constitution. The Constitution is safest that way. Suggesting that the Constitution is only what a certain person or few people say it is, and the rest of us don't have an opinion is where we run into bigger problems.
That's what every fucking country has now. It's what the public service is.
Boston Marathon hit by explosions
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Re: Boston Marathon hit by explosions
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
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Re: Boston Marathon hit by explosions
I just about reached the lofty heights of meeting with (very) Junior ministers in my last couple of years at work. I can assure you that 'merit' was not the main reason they were in those posts.
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Re: Boston Marathon hit by explosions
You seem to be conflating the NRA, the gun lobby, and the tea party with anti-government militias. These groups aren't interested in overthrowing the government, and they aren't a threat to the government. "Libertarian types" could mean just about anything, but if you're referring to the Libertarian Party, they usually get a massive 1-2% of the vote, although last year, the wildly popular Gary Johnson received a whopping 4%.JimC wrote:'Zilla, I'm sure that an overseas visitor would have a great time, in almost all cases meet great folk, and not be hunted down by gun-crazed militias.Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Get out of your cave, come visit the US. Invite yourself to Bella's. Hell, come to California for the 2014 Train Wreck. You can save your pennies for that. See what the fuck you're talking about first hand.![]()
That, however, is not rEv's point.
The messages coming from the NRA, the gun lobby, the tea party and libertarian types are strongly present in world media; not just sensationalist TV, but serious print journalism. The fact that they are not necessarily toothless tigers is shown in many ways, ranging from Oklahoma, through Waco and onto their ability to completely frustrate the will of the majority in terms of tightening gun regulation.
This particular type of fervent, active and potentially well-armed political movement simply does not exist to any real extent in other western democracies. Seabass's dismissal via an appeal to the apathy of the vast majority is perhaps more of a worry than a dismissal - perhaps the militant right-wing in America can rely on too many people not caring too much what happens politically, as long as their own personal lives are uninterrupted...
The Branch Davidians were really more of a cult than an anti-government militia, and they had no aspirations to overthrow the government that I am aware of. McVeigh could definitely be described as an anti-government militia type, but he was just one guy. He probably had assistance from others, but clearly they were not equal to the task of over throwing the federal government. In any case, Waco and the OKC bomb were isolated incidents that had no lasting effect on anything, other than getting a bunch of people killed and pissing everyone off. If you ask me, I'd say McVeigh and Koresh were pretty goddamn toothless, but maybe you and I use different definitions of "toothless".
As for the anti-gun legislation getting stymied... well, I personally wouldn't characterize all pro gun rights people as right wing, anti government militia wackos, but clearly you and I have a difference of opinion on that matter.
Anyway, the goalposts seem to be shifting all over the place at this point.
If the goalposts are: "Anti-government elements in the U.S. actually pose a serious threat to the U.S. government", then my reaction would be to laugh at you.
If the goalposts are: "Y'all got some crazy right wingers over there", then I'd be inclined to agree with you.
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Re: Boston Marathon hit by explosions
May I remind you that in Australia the ordinary citizen, even the very poorly educated citizen is in a position to not only making interpretations of of the constitution, but to also actually change it? We've had 44 referendums since 1906. I thought rejecting Menzies' proposal to outlaw the Communist Part of Australia and the adoption of the proposal to include Aborigines in the census were particularly good results, considering these determinations on the constitution were the results of the votes by "the ordinary citizen, even the very poorly educated citizen".rEvolutionist wrote:Bullshit. Government can remain democratic with meritocratic oversight of issues that are simply too complex for Joe Bloggs to understand. What on earth is controversial or disastrous about that?Hermit wrote:Sounds like you advocate democratic government be replaced by a meritocracy, rEvolutionist. That would be a disaster.rEvolutionist wrote:That's a recipe for disaster. (as you can see by the large number of whackjobs you have in the US who talk about overthrowing the gubmint). The ordinary citizen, let alone the very poorly educated citizen is in no position to make interpretations of complex issues like this.Coito ergo sum wrote:It is a role of the SCOTUS to interpret the constitution, but it is also everyone else's role too.rEvolutionist wrote:Who are you or they to interpret the consitution? It's the role of the Supreme Court to interpret the constitution. If they don't have a problem, then why should a bunch of nutjobs be allowed to attack the gumbint because they personally don't like a civil society?
...
We all interpret the Constitution. The Constitution is safest that way. Suggesting that the Constitution is only what a certain person or few people say it is, and the rest of us don't have an opinion is where we run into bigger problems.
That's what every fucking country has now. It's what the public service is.
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Re: Boston Marathon hit by explosions
I certainly didn't mean to imply they could successfully overthrow the US government - that would indeed be laughable. However, they could become a serious threat in the future, in the sense of continuing militant actions and/or terrorist bombing etc. I know the whole mix of crazy right wingers are not strictly unified, but they share a lot in common in terms of a fetish for weapons and a virulent hatred for government, or at least a government that takes any action they disapprove of, no matter the views of the majority...Seabass wrote:
If the goalposts are: "Anti-government elements in the U.S. actually pose a serious threat to the U.S. government", then my reaction would be to laugh at you.
If the goalposts are: "Y'all got some crazy right wingers over there", then I'd be inclined to agree with you.
And crazed left-wingers can share some of those characteristics too...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
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Re: Boston Marathon hit by explosions
Hermit wrote:May I remind you that in Australia the ordinary citizen, even the very poorly educated citizen is in a position to not only making interpretations of of the constitution, but to also actually change it? We've had 44 referendums since 1906. I thought rejecting Menzies' proposal to outlaw the Communist Part of Australia and the adoption of the proposal to include Aborigines in the census were particularly good results, considering these determinations on the constitution were the results of the votes by "the ordinary citizen, even the very poorly educated citizen".rEvolutionist wrote:Bullshit. Government can remain democratic with meritocratic oversight of issues that are simply too complex for Joe Bloggs to understand. What on earth is controversial or disastrous about that?Hermit wrote:Sounds like you advocate democratic government be replaced by a meritocracy, rEvolutionist. That would be a disaster.rEvolutionist wrote:That's a recipe for disaster. (as you can see by the large number of whackjobs you have in the US who talk about overthrowing the gubmint). The ordinary citizen, let alone the very poorly educated citizen is in no position to make interpretations of complex issues like this.Coito ergo sum wrote:It is a role of the SCOTUS to interpret the constitution, but it is also everyone else's role too.
...
We all interpret the Constitution. The Constitution is safest that way. Suggesting that the Constitution is only what a certain person or few people say it is, and the rest of us don't have an opinion is where we run into bigger problems.
That's what every fucking country has now. It's what the public service is.

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Re: Boston Marathon hit by explosions
If your point is that a civilised country needs teams of legal experts, with back-up from all the serious academic disciplines to review and plan government business and legislation, you are of course correct.
Hermit's point, to me, is simply that it is equally important for a democratic voice to be heard when making substantial community decisions about such issues, and that the decisions are often more progressive than some might expect. If we were to have a way at the moment for the Australian public to have a voice about gay marriage, the result may well surpass Ms Gillard...
Hermit's point, to me, is simply that it is equally important for a democratic voice to be heard when making substantial community decisions about such issues, and that the decisions are often more progressive than some might expect. If we were to have a way at the moment for the Australian public to have a voice about gay marriage, the result may well surpass Ms Gillard...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
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Re: Boston Marathon hit by explosions
Yeah, but that's not the debate here. The debate is based around Americans feeling justified in taking down a government if it doesn't meet their interpretation of the constitution. It's fucking bonkers.
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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Re: Boston Marathon hit by explosions
From what I can see, all their militant rhetoric is essentially defensive in nature. It's all "if those fucking government agents come to take my guns, I'll blow their fucking heads off" rather than storming the local town hall...rEvolutionist wrote:Yeah, but that's not the debate here. The debate is based around Americans feeling justified in taking down a government if it doesn't meet their interpretation of the constitution. It's fucking bonkers.
Still fucking lunacy, of course...
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Re: Boston Marathon hit by explosions
Interesting article on the parents and their conspiracy-theory denial... http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... _full.html
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Re: Boston Marathon hit by explosions
We could have done with a little more of that lunacy in 1930s Germany.JimC wrote:From what I can see, all their militant rhetoric is essentially defensive in nature. It's all "if those fucking government agents come to take my guns, I'll blow their fucking heads off" rather than storming the local town hall...rEvolutionist wrote:Yeah, but that's not the debate here. The debate is based around Americans feeling justified in taking down a government if it doesn't meet their interpretation of the constitution. It's fucking bonkers.
Still fucking lunacy, of course...
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Re: Boston Marathon hit by explosions
Take it to another thread FFS.rEvolutionist wrote:Yeah, but that's not the debate here. The debate is based around Americans feeling justified in taking down a government if it doesn't meet their interpretation of the constitution. It's fucking bonkers.
This topic is about the bombing in Boston a week ago, not about how some Americans feel about their government.
I'm reporting this to the mods so they can remove the derail.
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Re: Boston Marathon hit by explosions
Lol. Stop being a dick.
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
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Re: Boston Marathon hit by explosions
In order to have a meritocracy like that, the government has to be competent to approve those who will do the oversight of too complex issues. I have yet to see a government capable of doing that well. And, you can't really say that people are incompetent to handle the complex issues, but competent to appoint those who do.rEvolutionist wrote:Bullshit. Government can remain democratic with meritocratic oversight of issues that are simply too complex for Joe Bloggs to understand. What on earth is controversial or disastrous about that?Hermit wrote:Sounds like you advocate democratic government be replaced by a meritocracy, rEvolutionist. That would be a disaster.rEvolutionist wrote:That's a recipe for disaster. (as you can see by the large number of whackjobs you have in the US who talk about overthrowing the gubmint). The ordinary citizen, let alone the very poorly educated citizen is in no position to make interpretations of complex issues like this.Coito ergo sum wrote:It is a role of the SCOTUS to interpret the constitution, but it is also everyone else's role too.
...
We all interpret the Constitution. The Constitution is safest that way. Suggesting that the Constitution is only what a certain person or few people say it is, and the rest of us don't have an opinion is where we run into bigger problems.
That's what every fucking country has now. It's what the public service is.
Yes, it's what the public service is, and why government bureaucracies have the reputation of being a crazy mess, riddled with red tape and a difficulty doing quality work. Government is inefficient and expensive.
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Re: Boston Marathon hit by explosions
Well let the rednecks handle it. That'll solve all the problems.
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"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
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