Donglegate! The unfortunate progeny of Elevatorgate.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

My favorite challenge to "middle-of-the-road" types is "set you own house in order".

Already done. Painting finished, house cleaned and tidy, garden neat. What more do you fucking want?

I want you to come over here and do my house.

[Hermit]

My favorite challenge to "middle-of-the-road" types is "set you own house in order".

Meaning to stop being "people of faith"? I think any other disorders in the house - while some of them occur more commonly there - are not exclusive to middle-of-the-road types. Racists, sexists, anti-abortionists, libertarians and so on, can be found among atheists too. The most unfortunate aspect of that is that none of them feel in the least unsure about the virtues they imagine their views to possess.

[JimC]

My favorite challenge to "middle-of-the-road" types is "set you own house in order".

Meaning to stop being "people of faith"? I think any other disorders in the house - while some of them occur more commonly there - are not exclusive to middle-of-the-road types. Racists, sexists, anti-abortionists, libertarians and so on, can be found among atheists too. The most unfortunate aspect of that is that none of them feel in the least unsure about the virtues they imagine their views to possess.

I'm sure of at least two of the virtues of "moderation"...

An unwillingness to automatically let the means justify the ends, and a respect for the virtues of doubt...

No doubt there are downsides, and no doubt also I will have the normal quota of hominid biases and cognitive blindness...

[Hermit]

In the case of christianity, an argument can be made that "loving one's fellow man" is as close to an overarching ethical imperative as you're going to get. Committed christians, on viewing the activities of those arsehole baptists, should be saying loudly "not in my name" if theu want to maintain a vestige of internal moral consistency... Otherwise, become an atheist, and adopt any ethical principles that you fucking want... :twisted:

On the other hand, one could contend that, in reality, given the writings in the Koran, Islam is not in any way a "religion of peace". Given that, perhaps the jihadists are in fact a truer representation of the essence of islam, and the apathetic majority of muslims are just lazy in the practice of their faith...

Yes, yes, all that could be argued till the cows come home, and beyond. The exact opposite could be argued as well for the same amount of time.

That has nothing to do with Muslims and Christians who just want to eke out a living, bring up their brood, tend their garden and get along peaceably with their neighbours. That would be everybody except for the small but highly visible lunatic fringe. I reiterate that I don't see why the vast majority should feel a degree of responsibility for what that lunatic fringe is doing, be that engaging in a spot of suicide-bombing, spewing bile in regard to homosexuality, killing doctors who perform abortions and whatever else.

[Hermit]

My favorite challenge to "middle-of-the-road" types is "set you own house in order".

Meaning to stop being "people of faith"? I think any other disorders in the house - while some of them occur more commonly there - are not exclusive to middle-of-the-road types. Racists, sexists, anti-abortionists, libertarians and so on, can be found among atheists too. The most unfortunate aspect of that is that none of them feel in the least unsure about the virtues they imagine their views to possess.

I'm sure of at least two of the virtues of "moderation"...

I used "middle-of-the-road" in the context of religiosity.

[JimC]

Hermit wrote:

That has nothing to do with Muslims and Christians who just want to eke out a living, bring up their brood, tend their garden and get along peaceably with their neighbours.

On one level, I agree with you - they are not "bad people", they just want to live and let live...

But this is where the paradox of belonging to a religion forces its way into the debate. They will, no doubt, still insist that they are muslims, or christians...

In that case, fucking well man up, and either accept that your religion spawns evil whackos by its very nature, shrug your shoulders and admit it, or speak up against it. Otherwise, stop pretending you have a religion at all...

[charlou]

Imagine if I went to a mumsnet convention heard some women talking about abortion, shouted that they were a bunch of baby-killing sluts and then complained that the mumsnet and female reaction reaction was proof of rampant misandry.

The issues in discussion are about as serious as that. I contend that such are actually detrimental and expose nothing about human behaviour other than some people have a desperate need to be the centre of attention. If anything it will have a chilling effect where people will be more cautious about hiring women in case they go off the rails about some trivial shit and people start losing careers. Women should be the first calling this shit out as far as I'm concerned. Tyranny of the perpetually offended is not the sole province of religion it seems.

There has been strong, very articulate calling out of this shit, by women.

While the whole skepchick/A+ thing is train-wreck fascinating, the actual complaints they choose to raise have been yawnworthy as fuck. I don't feel obliged to comment because I'm a woman, but I do occasionally comment because I'm a person who, like you and others, finds it all pretty ridiculous and a tad frustrating at times. They're getting more attention than their petty complaints warrant.

I like being a woman, and I just get on with living my life ... as can most people where I'm lucky enough to live. I could have been born in a culture of oppression and violence. That kind of culture fucks with everyone in it, by the way .. not just the women.

[charlou]

Paula Kirby

[Gawdzilla Sama]

My favorite challenge to "middle-of-the-road" types is "set you own house in order".

Meaning to stop being "people of faith"?

How does that follow from what I said? I meant that they need to rein in the assholes extremists in their camp. They disown the Ray Comforts and Ken Ham's like they have nothing to do with them. If they disown them at all.

[Robert_S]

To me, it would seem that the amount of responsibility to counter the nutbags and douchejobs in a movement or culture would depend on the amount of preaching a person does at all.

For instance: if I go all evangelical about my atheism, then I also have a responsibility to counter any common and harmful misconceptions that a godless universe means that we should to throw all ethics and morals right out the window or that we ought to be slaves to our gene lines.

Somewhat relatedly, if I go at all out of I talk a religious person out of their religion, I have some default responsibility to be available to help them find a new philosophical ground to stand on.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

To me, it would seem that the amount of responsibility to counter the nutbags and douchejobs in a movement or culture would depend on the amount of preaching a person does at all.

As a historian I would point out Hitler if it didn't get me a Godwin point.

[Coito ergo sum]

I basically said that, yes, they are tarred with the same brush

Christians are? Citation needed.

Also, Islam is somewhat more monolithic than christianity.

Citation needed.

There are many more denominations of Christianity than there are in Islam, and Christianity underwent a Reformation and was largely defanged during the enlightenment.

You don't see as much "tarring" of Christians in Christian-majority countries because (a) for the most part Christianity has been separated from government, in terms of a largely cultural understanding throughout the western world that the government should not advance a religion, and (b) Christians for the most part say a lot of things, but you don't get as much violence perpetrated to foster the religion as you get in Islam. It's part of western culture to tolerate most words and opinions, even nasty ones.

In say, Saudi Arabia, you get Islam causing massive subjugation of women, nonMuslims and homosexuals, and atheists, and especially apostates. The religion is at the root of why gays are hanged, and women are stoned, for victimless offenses and incorrect opinions. The religion is intertwined with the State in countries like that, and there is a culture which, for example, overwhelmingly approves of the death penalty for apostates.

[Coito ergo sum]

Paula Kirby

Paula Kirby was already declared an Enemy of the Movement by PZ Meyers and the gang -- http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ula-kirby/

But, you know, the "movement" led by the Apelusters and their cohorts is one that can't abide a woman who has actually accomplished something. The ApeLuster movement is a movement of Communications majors who like to say they really love science.